From a player standpoint, I like the independent pack. It makes it much easier for a game to endure when the players have a sense of both ownership and purpose.

I also, though, am a little leery of jumping into a new-to-the-players pack with so many pre-existing characters. I've seen too many games where everybody comes to the table with their own competing versions of what Werewolf (the game) and what a werewolf should be...and "we're playing the game together" smashes all these characters who might not like each other at all into a pack. There's almost always some metagaming early on in terms of fudging decisions toward party unity, but with such a disparate lot of garou as we seem to have, we might need strong external pressure on the PCs to even get them to hang out, never mind form a pack. (I'm not saying that everybody in a pack needs to get along all the time, but it can be really hard to cultivate a shared sense of purpose when characters have radically different worldviews. Even when the players all get along perfectly, the differences tend to take over big swathes of the storytelling. The story becomes about intra-pack relations rather than any of the other cool stuff out there.)

  The PCs are going to be in that situation regardless of whether they're 'new' for the game or not, unless you're dealing with a restricted scenario where they all belong to the same tribe or something similar.

  Whether or not the characters (and players!) have sufficiently flexible personalities and concepts that they can adapt to being in situations that might not be quite what was originally envisaged is an important factor.

  This is also why it's useful to write them in as having already formed connections before becoming a pack and to have some presumed time as a pack - it means that they already HAVE found reasons to get along, or at least get along more than they don't. (Many modern game systems now incorporate the idea as both a thematic and mechanical part of character generation for exactly this reason.)


  So, maybe Jimena has occasionally been called on to referee disputes between some of Big Sister's charges - hands-on experience for her, hands-on demonstration for the ones that are half-moons.

  White Shadow and Valgard may have formed an unlikely friendship as sparring partners/drinking buddies/fans of the same sports team.

  Ghost may have been on security patrols around the Bawn with White Shadow - and had one anothers' backs against a few minor threats during that time.

  Etc.

  Things like that make it much easier to explain why they ended up forming a pack - even if they didn't all have a history with every other member, there are enough threads between them to overcome any initial difficulties.

lol Apocalypse World has nice mechanics for this sort of thing. :)

Okay, how about this?
In the following list, everybody come up with one bond your PC shares with the PC below you. It can be as tenuous or as strong as you like, subject to the other player's approval, but it should be a bond that's interesting enough to explain why you'd choose to hang out with them or jump into a fight alongside them, should the need arise.
All bonds have to be agreed upon by all parties involved, so expect a bit of give-and-take.
You're welcome to come up with additional bonds, if you like. Only this one is mandatory.

• Big Sister
• Ghost-of-Silver
• Jimena
• Valgard
• White Shadow
• Big Sister

I've left out the character 'Quoi' because ze hasn't logged in yet and I'm gonna rMail hir to see if ze's still interested.

((ST beat me in here--if we're going with a pre-existing pack, I'd still be up for auspice-based "when the pack came together" questions))



It might be a good idea to adapt or steal something along these lines--like Masks' "When the team came together..." questions (we could maybe rig them by auspice). WtA has such a huge thematic and tonal space. I'm not getting a strong sense of where we, individually or collectively, want to be in that space. My experience with oWoD games (don't get me started on Exalted) is that players often have really strong ideas regarding what the game is about and what a garou "should" be. If we can establish, however obliquely, some shared understanding of that before play starts, I think we'll probably save ourselves some drama later. That player-driven drama has killed more of the werewolf games I've been involved in than I've had die by attrition.

So, cards on the table:

Things I like in Werewolf Games (in no particular order)
-The Umbra (especially when it's beautiful, weird, and scary all at once)
-Occasionally getting to be a giant lupine killing machine
-Packs as occasionally dysfunctional families where everybody still actually cares about each other
-Conflicts grounded in real world stakes
-Knowing the odds are against us and fighting for every last scrap of hope we can find

Things I dislike in Werewolf Games(in no particular order)
-Player fights over who gets to be alpha, and heavy emphasis on "alpha-ness" in general; constant IC calls for challenges
-"I am the Destined Hero and this is My Story" (NB: emphasis here on spotlight-hogging and playing in a self-centered way. I'm okay with destiny/prophecy more generally as a story element).
-Going entirely grimdark and humorless
-Making everything about Pentex

  Where we're going to be in that space depends a lot on what the GM has in mind re the setting/scenarios that we'll be dealing with. One of the reasons I like to use Ghost as a character (and I suspect that this is also true of Trash Talker/Big Sister) is that she's fairly adaptable to different contexts, and if I got the feeling that that wasn't the case with a given game then I'd either go for another character or pass on the game entirely.


  I don't see any particular issues with the things you listed as liking/disliking. If anything, I've seen games try to treat Pentex as some 'mysterious unknown' more often than putting it front and center. (I don't think that meshes too well with the way the setting is structured, so I don't care for that idea myself, but I do agree that it shouldn't be behind every last little thing.)

In reply to Ghost-of-Silver (msg # 38):

Hm. All right, in the interest of transparency, I'll shed some light on my part of the story. Notice I say my part, because I want you guys to have just as much input on where the story goes as I do. Railroading is for convention games and one-shots. I don't see any reason to drag you guys along a prescribed storypath in a PBP setting.

I have a general metaplot regarding the larger pack in the area that's going to unfold, with or without your participation. You'll be able to influence it or ignore it as you see fit. If it interests you, I'll give you as much agency in the world as you want. (And as much as you can convince me makes logical sense.) If it doesn't interest you, you'll find the world changing around you as you mind your own business. As it does.
I have a couple of objectives planned for your starting scenario, just to get into the swing of things. You'll have a mission and you'll be able to approach it any which-way that suits you. It may or may not involve Pentex. lol ;) (Even if they do show up in the first mission, though, I promise they're not the only Big Bad out there.)
I have themes I wanna hit in this game. To me, Werewolf, even more than Vampire or Mage, has really strong themes about who your character is and what ze faces and why that matters. So a lot of the stuff I throw at you is going to tend toward one of the main themes of the story, but I try to avoid (with various degrees of success) being too hamfisted in my approach to morality plays. Regardless of meta, the story should always be about the characters, not the moral of the story.

Other than that, I want to explore stories that will matter to your characters. That's why I do character questionnaires and why I ask for prologue material. I want us to have a shared space to explore the stories that matter to all of us. If we just wanted to run through dungeons and kill monsters we'd be playing that other game, but we're playing Storyteller. That means we're in it for more than the kill count. (Although, you lot being werewolves, I do expect the kill count to do any paladin of Tempus proud. lol)

All right, enough soapboxing from me. Back to you guys!


P.S.--Although I've specified that I don't want corebook crossover on your character sheets, that doesn't mean there aren't other critters out there, and I'm not saying you can't or won't meet them. Werewolf being what it is, there's at least a fair chance you'll cross some vampires along the way--that is to say, they're out there whether you actually face them or not, and don't be surprised if you do. Also don't be surprised if the vampires you meet don't line up exactly with WoD canon. Since you're not vampires, nor mages, nor changelings, nor wraiths, nor mummies, nor--you know what I mean--I like to keep them open to surprising you, and in the real world that means changing what's in the books. That's the main reason I didn't want any continuity crossover in the beginning: I don't want you to depend on information that may or may not be accurate in this setting.
I am not saying that you will ever be able to play vampires in this game [fixed the wording to avoid confusion--JA]. I'm just saying I'm not opposed to you winding up with Kindred friends, rivals, and/or lovers.
'Nuff said.
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:11, Wed 20 Nov 2019.

Sorry I was silent yesterday, was stuck in a conference for over 12 hours...so, I'm playing a little catchup...

1) Valgard's Background: Valgard was born in the "bad part" of Austin, the child of a single "exotic dancer". At the age of 13, he got in a fight with a couple of older "tough boys" that called his mother a whore. He had his first change, and would have killed them both had his father, who had been secretly keeping tabs on him, intervened.

His father is Stalks-the-Wyrm, an Adren Lupus Fenrir Ahroun (that's right, his father is lupus, he is homid) member of the sept (mentor). A week after his first change, Stalks took Valgard to Norway to a "proper Fenrir sept" for training and to undergo a "proper" Fenrir Rite of Passage. He has returned recently (fitting with necessary plot or background ties) to join a pack try and earn his father's respect (there are daddy issues because he was born a crescent moon instead of full moon).

2) Re: Pack dynamics/why are we a pack...

I think there are a few ways to go about this. One way I've seen that I like is that the pack was dictated by the sept leaders to deal with a specific issue. This might be to deal with "those vampires over there," or to find a lost fetish in the umbra, or whatever. We were chosen specifically to be members of the pack for "reasons"; maybe we're the only packless cliath's, maybe there are issues between some of the tribes here, and making a multi-tribe pack of cliath is a way to show how the tribes can work together better. Extra points of there's a Shadow Lord who, for "reasons", wants to see the pack fail, and made sure it included a Fury and Fenrir (always volatile), and a Gnawer and Silver Fang, to sow discontent.

I like this approach because it doesn't require us to shoehorn backgrounds so everyone knows each other, it gives us a reason to work together even if we don't like each other (for example Valgard wants to succeed because that means Glory for him, which leads to earning respect from his father, so he'll work with whoever he has to). And it helps narrow down the totem search. If we have a specific purpose, that will dictate the best totem; war is probably the best way to go for killing vampires, while a totem that grants bonuses in the umbra (owl, uktena, etc.) would make sense if we've been tasked to search the umbra.

3)

I'm curious what exactly you mean by this. I totally agree that players fighting over who gets to be alpha is a sure-fire way to destroy a game. But, I do think pack alpha, dominance and submission, and the like are an integral part of Werewolf and completely dismissing them from the game changes it significantly. For example, the "offset" to the game mechanics advantages that metis get, beyond their flaw, is that they're generally treated like crap by other garou. Many of the mechanics of the game are specifically designed to bring this aspect of the game out. Pure Breed is a perfect example, and something I would expect our Silver Fang to exert. There is no reason that character disagreements/challenges should ever become player issues.

Now, I agree that "constant" IC challenges are not helpful, and something that a good Philodox should deal with, but being able to challenge the pack alpha if you don't like their way of doing things is, I believe, part and parcel to the Werewolf experience, just not when you're out on a mission where there is no time for such nonsense. That should happen back at the sept between missions. With that being said, since we have a Silver Fang in the group, I think the assumption, at least in Valgard's eyes, is that she will start as the pack alpha.

4) I'm in agreement with Jimena's "like" list, but would add another; sept life. ST, as you keep mentioning a "larger pack", I wonder if that could instead be a sept? That would still provide a hierarchy over our pack, and allow us to explore other aspects of sept life, like moots, caern rites, sept positions, having to deal with other packs if our mission takes us into their territory, etc. It's an aspect of Werewolf that I feel often gets lost, and is something I feel that sets it apart from other games. Like Jimena said, the pack should be a family (albeit likely dysfunctional), while the sept should be our extended family.

  And I just woken up again, so...

  1) Dad doesn't like theurges specifically or just thinks that only ahroun are 'real garou'? Even among the Fenrir I'm not sure he'd be popular for espousing that.

  2) Okay, I'm going to toss out a like/dislike: Shadow Lords shouldn't always be mustache-twirling bad guys (whether openly or secretly) just because. ;)

  3) Not all packs stick to the 'traditional' leadership structures, but even if they do, outright leadership challenges shouldn't happen very often. If there isn't a legitimate case to be made that the leadership NEEDS to change then it will have bad effects both out of game and in-setting.

  This doesn't preclude all kinds of disputation among the members, and how someone approaches the alpha role also matters a great deal, as does the level of trust that the other pack members have in their judgement, but changing leaders, even in peacetime, isn't something that a pack should treat lightly. It certainly shouldn't be happening often or everyone (both inside and outside of the pack) is going to see that as a sign that something is wrong.

  4) Re the large pack and whether it should be a sept, @20 Changing Ways actually addresses this situation: in short, extremely large packs can/do exist but are almost always transitory or in the process of becoming septs in their own right as groups form within it to focus specific concerns.

  That could be part of the background here: some or all of the PCs may have started out among the large pack, but it's slowly spinning off its members into smaller packs. It could go either way as to whether that means that a new sept is eventually in the offing or there's just a dispersal within the existing one.

Holy huge walls of text Batman!

Alright. Still like the large pack idea. As for Alpha, we all know Big Sister is going to be alpha. She can take care of Metis, so she can be pack momma as well. No questions asked, no further debate necessary, no challenges required, all settled. Yay!

So, my likes/dislikes on W:tA:

Likes:
-Playing the inhuman. A Metis has a very distinct worldly outlook, solely formed by the Garou culture. Both humans and wolves are alien to them when they are born, and the inherent injustice in their existence and the scorn heaped on them makes for lovely RP.
-Character development. I like to play a character that grows. Big Sister is quite young, barely Cliath and not far since her first change, so that's what? 10 years old? Still old enough to appreciate the lifetime of abuse and scorn heaped on her and what's yet to come, but having her first real pack, and the experiences she has with it, will have an effect on her as a person.
-Bone Gnawers doing unconventional stuff that pisses off other tribes.

Dislikes:
-Long walks in the umbra.
-Fighting unnamed mooks.
-Losing track of 800 pound murder machine Metis cubs.

  Okay, yes, cards-on-the-table-ish, Ghost is a Fang and thereby likely to be the pack alpha to begin with, if only because the sept will expect it. ("Why isn't the Fang speaking for you? Just what terrible secrets are you lot trying to hide!?")

  That said, she isn't inclined to be an alpha-ish alpha (per Jimena's dislikes). Leadership is complex, and it definitely doesn't involve treating everyone else as your minions. ("That's how the Shadow Lords do it!" quoth the peanut gallery.)
This message had punctuation tweaked by the player at 21:45, Wed 20 Nov 2019.

About “emphasis on alpha-ness”—I’ve seen too many players who want the alpha position to be a perfect autocracy, and any expression of dissent or alternatives becomes “challenge me or shut your pie-hole” (even when not in the field). Dominance and submission—to some extent—are absolutely part of a werewolf game. But dominance should not be domination. Submission should not be silencing. I know that good players don’t do this, especially not intentionally, but I’ve seen a lot of people who treat being alpha as simply being the biggest, most effective bully. As long as being alpha is more about leadership than power, I should be good.

Ghost:

1)  This goes a bit more into the backstory, but Stalks "bade his Godi (theurge) to cast runes (a Fenrir thing) to determine what night to mate with the woman to ensure that when his child was born the stars and planets would be aligned to produce a great warrior and Gaia's sister Luna would be full in the night sky."

So when he found out that Valgard was a Godi, he was disappointed. Now, that's probably not a popular opinion, but it's his. He doesn't have a problem with other people's children being theurges (or other auspices), but his should be an ahroun. This even caused Valgard to initially request a Rite of Renunciation to become an ahroun, but he was visited by a spirit the night before that changed his mind.

2) True, shadow lords shouldn't always be portrayed as mustache-twirling bad guys (I love the shadow lords), but sometimes when the shoe fits....;)

3) I absolutely agree there are various leadership styles, my only point is that the concept of alpha is ingrained into the psyche of werewolves. Now, if the alpha wants to always consult the pack prior to making a decision (assuming there is time to do so), that would make them a pretty effective, and likable leader.

I'm also not a fan of, "I don't like what decision you just made, so I'm going to challenge you." That's not really a good reason to challenge, and a good philodox will either cut that short, or establish a challenge that hugely favors the alpha and makes the challenger look stupid. Now, if the alpha makes a decision, perhaps against the recommendations of some of the pack members, that leads to a serious mission failure and perhaps the death of one of the pack members, I would consider that an appropriate opportunity for a challenge.

4) Hmm, I haven't read that, I should check it out.

Jimena:
That's why I wanted clarification. I am totally on board with everything you said. There are good leaders who consult the pack, take into account everyone's strengths and weaknesses, and lead with compassion. Then there are the Get :p But in all honestly, I think we're on the same page.

And I forgot to add one of my dislikes:
"It's what my character would do..." - This phrase should never be used as an excuse to destroy other players' fun, destroy the pack dynamics, or ruin our collective story. I am a firm believer that all of us (players and ST) enter into a social contract that we are playing together as a sort of team. We the player's control the characters, not the other way around, so we can't abdicate responsibility for poor conduct because of the character. You made the character, you can change the character to fit within the group dynamic.

So while yes I am playing a Get of Fenris and there might be some tense moments with our Fury (because that can make for good story), I will never put the story in a situation where it's him or her, or try to ruin Jimena's player's fun, or anybody else.

If I ever seem to be getting close to that line, please say something in OOC or send me a PM.

We're a pack.  We are brothers and sisters.  The wisest and most experienced will often be turned to to make those final or split decision calls.  We are wolf, man, and spirit, with the minds and strengths of each, don't limit yourself.  I'll have your backs, and nip your flanks if you get out of line.
This message was last edited by the player at 01:58, Thu 21 Nov 2019.

You're right, absolutely. They should be a sept. The large pack has only been around in its current form for ~2 decades for reasons, and they do spin off satellite packs to improve their area and keep numbers manageable, but there's no reason they shouldn't have a caern.
And I'll check out Changing Ways, Ghost-of-Silver. Maybe it'll be on sale for Black Friday? :) [fingers crossed]

Incidentally, since so many of us are from or familiar with the Austin area, do you have any preferences or brainwaves on where the caern should be located? I'm thinking somewhere to do with the Edwards Aquifer, but I haven't nailed down a site yet.

Before I forget:
Everybody that submits a prologue (it doesn't have to be much) and the completed Character Questionnaire gets 7 extra Freebie Points to spend as you will.
Also, I'm a proponent of test runs on new characters. If your character doesn't perform as you'd like during the first few scenes, you're welcome to revise anything you need to. Just let me know and let other players know if it's any of their business.

Austin Community Landfill! The Bone Gnawers have the Caern there, with the mighty Great Trash Heap as the Guardian Totem. Booyah!

Very limited ability to post from my phone, but Barton Springs needs a powerful salamander spirit. Zilker seems like it has too many festivals in it to be a proper bawn, but if Central Park works, it might work also.

Or near lake Travis somewhere.  I was a kid when I last bed there so Memory not so good and I’m sure it’s changed a lot in 35 years

  I seem to be one of the few that doesn't live near the area, so my only input is that the place should probably be passable to a variety of garou tribes/breeds/etc.

Barton Creek Wilderness Park, maybe? That would be close enough to Zilker to put Barton Springs reasonably into the sept's responsibilities.

...Barton Creek Habitat Preserve is out a little farther. Pedernales Falls State Park might also work, though it's getting pretty far out from Austin proper. There's not a lot that's open and not under development inside the rough loop defined by Mopac, 45, and 130.

You know, Barton Creek Wilderness Park is nice, but it's adjacent to a major highway intersection. I like Barton Creek Habitat Preserve better. Plus, it's farther away from the center of everything so it makes sense the pack started to form splinter packs to branch out.
Let's say the sept is based there, out near Bee Caves. Other, satellite packs can have turf in the other places you guys mentioned. Maybe they've set up some smaller caerns with Moon Bridges established to assist in getting around quickly.
Sound good to everyone?

I am in the 'never been to Austin, or the Americas for that matter' camp, so all fine here. :)

  That sounds fine to me - we've presumably got the 'secretly owned/managed by some garou/kinfolk' thing going to ensure that it actually *stays* a preserve?

In reply to Ghost-of-Silver (msg # 56):

That's what kinfolk are for! :-J Let's just say they have more of an 'understanding' with the leeches of the city than some of your brothers and sisters would like, and since the suckers have a vested interest in keeping the majority of the scary claw monsters outside the middle of their hunting ground for the vast bulk of the time, they help keep stupid mortals from doing something in character and turning the preserve into an office park and an outlet mall. As they already have in much of the Barton Springs area.

P.S.--And if you don't think that's a point of contention at every. Single. Pack meeting, then you've obviously never been to a family reunion before. Or else your family is way more chill than mine is. lol
This message was last edited by the GM at 15:13, Sun 24 Nov 2019.

Man. I'm imagining Kindred at all the festivals at Zilker (and elsewhere) now...