I really like the jungle concept. Is it inspired by the Divine Comedy by any chance? It seems familiar, and I love that poem for all of the vivid imagery it has. ^_^

Hm. I mean, it's inspired more by the Sirens of Greek myth, but there is some Divine Comedy inspiration I suppose, and a bit of fey imagery for the whole "you turn to retrace your steps and they go somewhere other than where you came from" thing. Basically I really like the idea of alien geometries and places where geometry doesn't work like it should, higher dimensional places, anything like that. So I integrate a lot of that into my writing, whether for games or stories. And the voices trying to undermine the heroes' confidence going into an important fight is a classic in a lot of stories of culture heroes - it gives a chance for the hero to hesitate, to be tempted or frightened or lured off the path. Whether you're talking about the Sirens, the temptations of Christ, or a superhero comic where the love interest asks the superhero to stay home from the battle because they're scared for the hero, they all draw on that same imagery of a voice undermining the hero's confidence to emphasize their steadfast bravery for continuing (or in rare cases show the tragedy as they're drawn away).

Basically, it's a slight variation on a classic theme that shows up in everything from modern religion to ancient myth to pop culture. Sometimes cliche is cliche because it works. ;)

Edit: Expanding on that a little, because I love this kind of shop talk - the alien geometries and strange movement, along with the darkness, is really there to underline that this is a strange place that doesn't work by the rules you're used to. In a Campbell-inspired view (and yes I know that's old and has been largely discredited by anthropologists, don't at me) this is the heroes moving into a different world to pursue their quest. In this case it's a very hostile world, shown by the plants being aggressive and the voices being hostile and degrading rather than tempting and seductive - it's about threat, not about the lure of the unknown.

The voices themselves, and how they speak to different characters' inner lives and directly address only them, really sort of symbolize as best I can the internal struggles of these people who now have their lives and souls on the line in the quest. You don't reach that position without a certain degree of inner stress and turmoil, and that's manifested and underlined by these external voices highlighting it. It makes them feel more mortal, more like they might really be dealing with a lot of stress and feeling very small in the face of this threat.

The candle, then, is their only tie to the world they're native to - and it's burning low. Very clear symbolism there, very clear messaging. "You're about to be adrift in enemy territory." So that's a bit of a different take than usual, rather than being a hero proudly going to another world to defeat the villain you're small and worried, huddled around a flame for light - a classic image evoking the unknown dangers of the night, going back to some of the earliest recorded stuff we have with stuff like Egyptian prayers to the sun emphasizing how important light was to survival. It's a clear image that evokes a response.

The whole of the scene was written with the goal of really underscoring that the heroes are small and facing forces and threats beyond their understanding, so that it feels more, well, there's more of a dramatic payoff when they succeed - or a sense of the tragedy inherent in fighting vast forces and losing, should they fail.
This message was last edited by the GM at 20:28, Sat 14 Aug 2021.

I was thinking about in the beginning of Inferno where Dante is lost in the Dark Forest has lost the path to follow. I pilfer and steal when I write as well. Regardless the source, I like it. It's fun, and I think making players face abstract concepts is neat. ^_^

Thanks! I don't really think of it as stealing, when I write, so much as taking these shared concepts and cultural idioms and putting my own flair on them. Genuine originality in the sense of wholly new ideas is very hard, and more than that is unrewarding. The whole reason stories work as a medium is that they allow us to communicate using shared cultural concepts, idioms, and mental shortcuts in the form of symbols. If I were writing a scene like this, and I didn't use cultural touchstones, it would feel very weird and not very meaningful or interesting. It's not about avoiding cliche so much as it is about using cliches and other cultural elements in ways that say something interesting - a goal I think we're collectively reaching, in this story.

This is true. ^_^

Apologies if this is all a bit meta or a bit heavy on literary analysis for people. It's totally fine to read the scene as just "it's fun", that's a valid goal! I just wanted to take the opportunity to dip a little into how I approach and think about writing scene prompts and narration, in case people were interested. I don't often get the opportunity to really dig into a scene and go step by step over what each portion of it is doing from a literary analysis perspective, so getting asked about something related kinda made me gush a bit. ^_^

Gushing is good.  Gushing works.  I don't know about others but Hester had already considered what the jungle said to her but she knows that she can delay her metamorphosis by becoming a better and better thief rather than a sorceress.

I feel like gushing is justified, especially considering how much work you put into the whole thing.

Not a problem at all, quite the opposite. :-p I enjoy getting a peek at the "behind the scenes" work that goes down in building a world and adventure. Thanks for sharing! ^_^

Absolutely! I'm trying to share more and especially to share more about the themes of the games I run up front, to help people write characters that will play with those themes in interesting ways. I consider myself quite fortunate that this group meshed so well with the sort of vibe or theme of the game that I wanted to run - it's been great seeing these characters grow and progress through this story.

Related, I'm guessing you all know (if only because I keep saying) that this campaign is going to come to a close after taking down Whisper. That's not the end of the characters' story necessarily, but it is the end of the campaign arc I was setting out to do. With that end only a scene or so away, I'd like to take a moment to first thank everyone for what has been a great run, and second offer up a question: Did you enjoy this game, this group, and me as a GM enough that you'd want to keep going?

Because I am absolutely down to run another game for this group, if anyone is interested. Not only do you have the objectively good quality of being able to finish a game, but subjectively I've been having a great time and enjoying these characters a bunch. So while this campaign is ending, I'd be thrilled to have you all for another game. I've been thinking about story starts a bit, and I think I have a couple if people want to stick with Pathfinder, or if you want to branch out I can do other systems as well.

I don't mean to pressure anyone, of course, just figured I'd put it on the table to start thinking of as we move towards bringing this game to a close. If you're interested, just let me know and I can start discussing story seeds and ideas with folks. ^_^

I am definitely interested! I have thoroughly enjoyed this game and the character Bristle Chonk. I would be up for continuing with the characters that survive the final showdown, or for starting fresh. Both could be a lot of fun.

I guess I do have one more question after all. Would the spell Blessing of Fervor count as a spell that affects speed? One of the options is to increase speed, but it doesn't need to be selected.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic.../blessing-of-fervor/

If it can't be cast, does Bristle know that? Or would she try to cast it and waste the spell?

Hm. I'm going to say you can cast it, but not take the extra action while in the dimension of time - so basically irrelevant since you made it so easily.

Also, I'd probably veer away from continuing with the same characters for a few reasons, most notably that they already finished something huge and anything else would be a letdown, and that without Whisper as a common enemy it'd be a hard sell keeping Voh'ren and Caleb working alongside Bristle - that was only ever stable because Whisper was a higher priority threat, I think, considering what Sarenrae and the Green Faith have to say about the undead.

In which case the question would be, stick with Pathfinder or switch? I'd probably say PF is good because everyone knows it, but if y'all want to try something new I have a laundry list of systems I either know or want to learn.

I've loved the game, the campaign, you as a GM and all. Like Bristle, I've enjoyed Hester more information 90% of the characters I've played. To me, this is a fraction of Hester's arc because she needs to redeem her family from the taint of Whisper. Killing her will not be enough.

Yeah, keeping the same team would probably only make sense if we skipped ahead in time quite a bit. Like they are all level 16 and we have an adventure where a threat pops up that requires an "assemble the old team" type of narrative. Which could definitely be fun, but would be a very specific type of game.

Pathfinder would be my preference, just because I am not sure if I would have time to learn something new. I also know Dungeon World really well, so that would be another option I would be fine with.

I hope to have the time for an IC post sometime tonight.

In reply to ylva (msg # 517):

You know I’m always down to play a good game, especially with a solid group like what we’ve gotten here. So hard to find a group that can maintain a good momentum, I’d hate to lose it. My preference is pathfinder by dint of experience, but you know I’m always willing to learn.
If we do end up keeping these characters, I agree it’d probably have to be after a time skip, and the stakes would have to be something on Whisper’s level or more. I think we could make Caleb and Bristle working together work, under the rationale that Caleb would be watching her to keep her from doing anything too bad and maybe hopefully bring her around to a less… macabre way of thinking and doing things.

Likewise, I'm happy to keep playing and thank you for offering! ^_^ I've wanted to play the switch-hitter Ranger build that Treantmonk put together for a while, but most games I enter end up petering out. I'd prefer to stick with Pathfinder just because I know the system and it's hard for me to learn something new once the school year starts. I'd be interested in keeping Voh'ren, or just play the same build with a different character if possible.

Having run a level 20 game, I can confidently say that I am not in a place where the massive amount of bookkeeping involved in super high level sounds like any fun at all. So that would limit it to a comedic "get the gang back together, but actually they've let their skills decay over the years" thing, and I just don't see people like Caleb and Hester, at least, letting themselves get soft. Just doesn't fit them. So, as much as I like the idea of reassembling the old team, I think I have to call that one a no go.

So that said, here are the seeds I've come up with that I can see being fun in Pathfinder for this group.

---

Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
Seed #1: The City of Doors

This one is a notably episodic game in some ways. You would wake up with a full set of memories, but they don't end with you being in a strange city built of glass and metals you don't recognize, empty except for faceless automatons that seem to be there just to maintain the city. Said city has eleven portals of various descriptions scattered around, and each one has eleven settings on it that take you different places - so 121 total destinations that this place has permanent Gate effects going to. At firt the game will be a very simple and episodic "go to new location, solve the problem in it" kind of thing, but the city in between is not as empty nor as benign as it seems, and there remains that quiet mystery - how exactly did you end up here, and can you figure out how to go back?

As far as mechanical details, mid level and obviously anything goes for race etc when you've been grabbed from all different places, possibly not in the same world. Drawing heavily on Mass Effect, as well as the Death's Gate Cycle, Max Gladstone's Craft series, and even a little on things like Portal or Dead Space for the entirely empty city.

As far as the themes, this one is really looking at the fish-out-of-water element, but in a non-comedic way. You're wandering into people's lives, seeing them at their most raw, but you don't have the context or the emotional connection. You see things that strangers shouldn't see. You walk in on intractable problems and think you're the one to solve them, so like, what kind of arrogance inspires someone to go "you've got more knowledge of the situation and can't fix it in however long you've been trying, but I can show up and solve everything."? And again, there's that little nagging voice saying that this doesn't happen this way, people don't just wake up in alien interplanar portal hubs and find them empty for the taking.

---

---

Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
Seed #2: Where Light Burns Brightest

This one is a bit of an opposite to the last, in that rather than an episodic plot in terms of location, it's episodic in terms of activity. It leans strongly into a concept found, and developed rather poorly I'm afraid, in Horror Adventures, which is corruption. It revolves around a blasted waste that used to be a city before being taken over by...something, something bad. Exactly what and how are unknown, but the whole city is now a sort of radioactive zone, and people who go in don't often come out the same. People outside are occasionally marked with the same sort of mutations starting, and are summarily thrown into the confines of the old city wall, which is manned by people ready to shoot at a moment's notice. Having now been abandoned to your own fate inside the wasted city, you decide to find the heart of this corruption, and end it.

This story is mostly inspired by a mix of the game Darkest Dungeon and an entry on the SCP Foundation site. Mechanically, you'd be fairly high level, and you'd be working with me on a corruption - a way that your character is changing away from their base race into something wrong over time. I'm not going to use the base corruption rules because I dislike the "and then they were an NPC" thing they do. But it's definitely inspired by some of the same things.

Thematically, there are really two very distinct thematic thrusts here. The first is kind of, what do you do when you know you're doomed? These corruptions, they are progressive, and they erode sense of self as much as they do the body. Perhaps more. So now that you're marked, you are on a very clear timer. How does that affect how you live? Does it change how you think? The second, as you might guess from the Darkest Dungeon reference, is trauma. Being a soldier is intensely traumatic, it causes PTSD more than almost anything else does, and there's no reason to think that's a recent development. Ancient warriors were dealing with intense traumas. What does that look like? What does it do to someone to see these things, to do these things? How do they cope with their own memories?

---

---

Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
Story Seed #3: A City of Snow and Ashes

Irrisen is a nation little-known by outsiders. It has no need of outsiders, and those from beyond its borders seldom care much for it save as enemy or trading partner - and that last is limited at best. But the Realm of Winter has its own culture, its own social norms, its own whole world, built around the endless winter and the cyclic return of Baba Yaga to crown the new queen and take the old to parts unknown for unclear reasons. This is the year of the Witch-Queen's hundred-year cycle, the year that a new queen will be named and Queen Elvanna will be taken by the same impossibly ancient matriarch who crowned her. When the magical crown itself is stolen, though, the ritual seems impossible to be performed without its return. And Baba Yaga is not accustomed to being denied.

Obviously, a much more social/intrigue game than the other starts. Heavily revolves around Irrisen and building up the culture of the nation to explore. Inspired by classic heist films and stories, with the twist that this time, you're trying to steal the crown jewels back.

In terms of theme, this is the closest to Imagine Tomorrow. It looks at an insular regime, and what it's actually like to live under what is essentially a magical dictatorship. How do you deal with that? And how does the dictator herself deal with knowing that someone even stronger than she is, much stronger in fact, is coming to depose her and set another on her throne? Do you even want to steal the crown back, or do you want to break the cycle entirely? This is especially poignant for "monstrous" races, because Irrisen is actually shockingly inclusive, and one of the only places on Golarion that a lot of these races are seen as full citizens - albeit citizens of a brutal dictatorship.

---

I also have other seeds or campaigns I've tried to run that didn't quite launch right, if people want to peruse other ideas - these are three off the top of my head.

Does Whisper launch her spell before or after Hester steps through the doorway?

If all the Whispers are within 40 feet, I will cast Prayer. If not, and we can identify the real Whisper, I will cast Dimensional Anchor at her.

Either way, Bristle's dragon will be attacking the nearest clone. (Full attack with all its appendages, if possible.)

In reply to ylva (msg # 525):

I like all of these to be honest and Hester fits into all of them.

---

Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
Least of all in 1 because it's episodic and the insidious corruption at her centre doesn't fit so much.
Most of all in 2 where she already has corruption at her centre.
In 3 though, I imagine what she would want to do would be to end Baba Yaga so maybe not.

---

Story Seed #3: A City of Snow and Ashes sounds the most interesting to me, but I could definitely have fun in any of them.

Yeah, Hester got hit as well.

Would it be possible to aid Caleb's roll?

Sorry I haven't posted regarding new games or the IC thread. I've got stuff to prep for work. I was hoping to do it last week, but last week sucked.

I had a quick question on positioning. Is the Whisper in the tree that Caleb attacked within melee range if Voh'ren and Kiru close? He was confident enough to hit that one with the orb, so Voh'ren would figure that's the one we should target. If I can, I'll close to melee. If not, then I'll attack at range.