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04:43, 29th March 2024 (GMT+0)

OOC to start.

Posted by ApeirosFor group 0
Sapphire
player, 97 posts
Sat 11 Jul 2020
at 05:19
  • msg #267

Re: OOC to start

@Strange

Yes this is trying to model bigotry and faith clash. it does a very good job I think. It's trying to answer the questions just like in game 'what happens if a Hindu priest blesses a devout Catholic', 'what happens if the recipient is an atheist'...

Step1: Priest invokes Miracle
Step2: Receipiant chooses to accept miracle or not
Step3: Faith is used. The Priests if the recipient hasn't got any, otherwise the recipients
Step4: If there is spiritual conflict we resolve it as spiritual damage


In the example of the blessing IC, here is one way you can RP what happens. There are other ways you can describe the game play: rather like the classic story of blind people trying to describe an elephant that they have felt one part of

Faith of recipientWhat they doResult
CatholicFollow the precept of their religion and reject the blessingNothing
CatholicGo against the precepts of their religion and accept the blessingTheir God Smites them, but they are blessed
PolytheistAccept the blessingThey are blessed
PolytheistReject the blessingSocial only:  The same as slapping away a hand that had been offered to help them
AtheistReject the blessingThey piss off the god. He blesses them to prove he exists, and their brain can't handle it
Agnostic (no faith)Reject the blessingSocial only: The same as slapping away a hand that had been offered to help them
Agnostic (no faith)Accept the blessingThe priest uses his own faith (at minuses). If the result is spectacular, the religious experience is so intense that perhaps the Agnostic realises that God is real

This message was last edited by the player at 05:43, Sat 11 July 2020.
Apeiros
GM, 82 posts
Gathering Stories
from the Storm
Sat 11 Jul 2020
at 06:42
  • msg #268

Re: OOC to start

In reply to Sapphire (msg # 267):

I have considered a chart/graph/hypercubic-parallelateardrop-flowimage that provides a modified Spiritual Struggle based upon Acceptance. So Catholic v Anglican would both subtract 12 from their faith totals rendering a spritual struggle basically moot, while a Cyberpapacy v Ketta Kallas might have a +2 to their faith totals. The complexity of this chart makes me happy this group doesn't need it.
Sapphire
player, 98 posts
Sat 11 Jul 2020
at 06:56
  • msg #269

Re: OOC to start

But surely you could just use the chart that already exists in 'The Law Of the One True God', and then create a new one for each religion!

Actually I think the rules are pretty cool as they are.

They model multiple faiths well. They model agnosticism in a world in which the gods are actually real. They model the clash between faiths well. They also model atheism well: it's hard to be an atheist when there are priests who can do miracles as reliably as the atheist can shoot a gun at an enemy, but if you want to doubt the evidence of your senses you can (it just hurts)

Even though there were a lot of options in the chart, it comes down to :
* roll focus
* work out faith
* see if there is any spiritual conflict
Pierre De Gaulle
player, 34 posts
Sat 11 Jul 2020
at 07:02
  • msg #270

Re: OOC to start

In reply to Apeiros (msg # 264):

Tx Ap.
Ben Altman
player, 43 posts
Damage: S:1
Pos: 4 Exp: 0
Sat 11 Jul 2020
at 07:04
  • msg #271

Re: OOC to start

If there is a lesson from this is that miracles are a two edge sword that can cause more trouble than aid when cast on non believer of proper faith.

A second lesson is that the first opportunity Ben has, I will purchase him Faith, either Judaism or Atheism, still debating on it.

In any case this has been such a mechanical bog that we've been spending days debating this instead of RPing.

Miracles next to Atheists tend to fail more even when not targeting the Atheist. As there are many other mystical way to produce miracles effect I see it as a valid way to view the world of TORG (at least at some cosms where it is true). I also read somewhere that in TORG atheism is the rejection of the meddling of divine being for good or bad.
Sapphire
player, 99 posts
Sat 11 Jul 2020
at 07:12
  • msg #272

Re: OOC to start

OOC is not about RPing. IC is about RPing. OOC is for talking about the game, and talking about stuff.

There's a thread open that you could RP in right now if you want to: It's the ICOC. That would be nice: RPing is one of the reasons we play the game. Combat threads (in my experience, yours may differ) have about 1% RP, 99% crunch


@two edge sword
Yes it's just like any other tool.

If you shoot a friend with a gun, it's probably a bad idea. If a friend offers you a helping hand, then it might be a good idea to accept it. Both are tools.

if a friend has a gluten intolerance handing him a loaf of bread is a bad idea
This message was last edited by the player at 07:17, Sat 11 July 2020.
Ben Altman
player, 44 posts
Damage: S:1
Pos: 4 Exp: 0
Sat 11 Jul 2020
at 07:54
  • msg #273

Re: OOC to start

Al true Sapphire but when all the focus is on the mechanic and discussing it the RP evaporate.

My experience with combat is a lot more RP, in essence combat is just few people generating random numbers following arbitrary rules. It get boring (to me) pretty fast if we don't add the descriptive element, the feel of the scene, what the character is feeling and thinking.

As far as I can tell, Faith is more like throwing a grenade to help a friend, it may help him but it has a good chance of hurting him in the process.

Worse, IMO the fact that Faith had a chance to radically alter someone else RP, not because of RP and game decision/actions but because someone rolled higher. It is a very dangerous tool, I have a certain image of Ben, I don't want him to become follower of another religion just because someone rolled very high.

You keep repeating the offered hand example, I think we'd have to agree to disagree about this. Accepting a faith into your heart is a lot more fundamental than taking someone hand. It basically mean (for Monotheistic faiths) that you accept that your whole view of reality is flawed. It is a lot harder than just saying yes I accept. In game, of course Ben accept Sapphire aid, he has no reason to doubt her at this time but there is a HUGE gap between accepting her help and embracing her faith or even believing in her ability to pray and get results.
Matthew Matherson
player, 50 posts
Sat 11 Jul 2020
at 10:57
  • msg #274

Re: OOC to start

In reply to Ben Altman (msg # 273):

I don’t think we should point a finger at Miracles for slowing anything down, we did the same thing with Mathematics. The “issue” (for want of a better term) is that it’s a new group of players, playing an old system that some have played and some have not. And even those who have played may not have played in a long time. And to further complicate it, there is a new version that some of the old players are playing which confuses things more.

But mainly, it’s the first combat for the group I mentioned above. There’s going to be questions that need to be worked out. And that takes time in a forum like this. But as time goes on, it will get smoother.

As for worry of being converted, I get the impression from you, Ben (sorry, don’t know your real name), that you are viewing forced conversion in the game to forced conversion in real life. One is a game mechanic the other is a highly offensive thing. Maybe I’m applying more weight to you words than there are but that’s my read.

I see your point on having a specific view for your character that you don’t want changed, but if you were converted you can self convert to another faith by reducing your adds on Faith (even to 0) and that could be to Atheist or any religion. Secondly, it’s Torg... your character could transform to another reality completely. One of the core concepts of the game is that your character can radically change.

(Message typed while still in bed in the morning, on my phone, with VERY small text. Expect weird autocorrects fo occur!)
Ben Altman
player, 45 posts
Damage: S:1
Pos: 4 Exp: 0
Sat 11 Jul 2020
at 11:15
  • msg #275

Re: OOC to start

I agree Mathew, it is not the miracle by itself, perhaps old TORG is a lot more crunch heavy than I am used to. Perhaps things that would have been great thirty years ago when I was a teenager are not working for me.

There is a huge difference between transformation and conversion. Transformation keep the character basic personality, goals etc and  alters them to the new world. Conversion take the basic of the character and turn it without control of the player. In my mind this is removal of player authority that is unacceptable.
Sapphire
player, 100 posts
Sat 11 Jul 2020
at 11:19
  • msg #276

Re: OOC to start

I also chatted with the GM about forced conversion. He and I both feel exactly the same on the topic, which is why there is now a clarification on the topic.

There is no forced conversion of PC religion in this game. Because it's 'wrong'. We all feel that. I don't personally have a problem with a temporary 'flash' which is the GMs view (my suggestion was 'just doesn't work on PCs'). In fact I really like his mechanism: it's better than mine.

The miracle has caused 0 slow down. The only slowdown is because people haven't posted their combat posts: that happens all the time in RPOL. It's part of the genre.  The post I put in the OOC on the first post was correct, and is still correct. We've been chatting about it because it is an interesting game mechanism, while we are waiting for people to post

As I say: if you want to RP and progress your character during combat (combat is always, always, always a speed bump in RPOL) just post in the ICOC.
Apeiros
GM, 83 posts
Gathering Stories
from the Storm
Sat 11 Jul 2020
at 11:39
  • msg #277

Re: OOC to start

In reply to Sapphire (msg # 276):
In reply to Matthew Matherson (msg # 274):
In reply to Ben Altman (msg # 273):

I firmly agree that one character's good roll should not control another player's character concept. Thus my ruling that PC forced conversions are not permanent...unless the Player wants them to be. Under RAW, the expenditure of resources would be permanent even if you dropped the Add; My rule avoids that.

Note: the choice to take or not take skills is a complex one, for all skills. This combat has/will bring up things the group should talk about...but they are things none of your characters could have known about prior to this. On your next vehicular transportation you will have plenty of time to discuss...but there's this and one more combat before that point.
Matthew Matherson
player, 51 posts
Sat 11 Jul 2020
at 12:19
  • msg #278

Re: OOC to start

In reply to Ben Altman (msg # 275):

On the Torg Eternity boards lots of people were praising the fact that they got rid of a lot of the crunch from Torg.  Personally, I love crunchy systems but I ABSOLUTELY understand why people wouldn't.

The funny thing is when people would praise it I would always think to myself, "what are you talking about?  Torg was not a crunchy system."  Getting to play again, I am realizing I completely forgot how crunchy it really is!  But it's also probably one of the reasons I love it.

As for changing one's character, I get that.  That makes sense to me.  I personally don't mind it and actually enjoy it.  But that's me.
Apeiros
GM, 84 posts
Gathering Stories
from the Storm
Sat 11 Jul 2020
at 22:44
  • msg #279

Re: OOC to start

After reading back and realizing my recollection of Helping rules has been tainted by Eternity, I may have to write a House Rule for it. But that's for later.
Apeiros
GM, 86 posts
Gathering Stories
from the Storm
Sun 12 Jul 2020
at 06:17
  • msg #280

Re: OOC to start

Has everyone figured out how to see the Group 0 map?

It took me a while to figure it out.
Jason Keller
player, 35 posts
Sun 12 Jul 2020
at 06:47
  • msg #281

Re: OOC to start

Apeiros:
Has everyone figured out how to see the Group 0 map?

It took me a while to figure it out.

I think so - but....your directions are really off. I mean you can't have East on the top AND the bottom of the map, and normally you only put like 1 E to indicate a direction.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:49, Sun 12 July 2020.
Sapphire
player, 101 posts
Sun 12 Jul 2020
at 06:54
  • msg #282

Re: OOC to start

*laughs* The one bit of RPOL that sucks is the maps. They also don't update well: so when the GM changes them, it takes ages for people to see them... It's a shame because maps are such a useful tool.

@Jason
I think E is Eidenos not East. I think that is showing where the lizard men are (although remember the visibility is 10m at the moment). The red S is me. The J is you... that sort of thing.

Sita is being spookily scary and isn't visible on the map.
Apeiros
GM, 87 posts
Gathering Stories
from the Storm
Sun 12 Jul 2020
at 08:26
  • msg #283

Re: OOC to start

In reply to Sapphire (msg # 282):

Jason isn't on the map, either.

the J is Jalia, though she has indicatd a melee atack on an Edeinos, so I believe she is moving along one of the paths
Koharu Saito
player, 28 posts
Sun 12 Jul 2020
at 19:17
  • msg #284

Re: OOC to start

I thought it was funny, Jason.
Jason Keller
player, 36 posts
Sun 12 Jul 2020
at 19:50
  • msg #285

Re: OOC to start

In reply to Koharu Saito (msg # 284):

Thank you! I'm glad someone appreciates my dumb humor. =)
Dr. Sita Chandrasakar
player, 37 posts
Sun 12 Jul 2020
at 21:19
  • msg #286

Re: OOC to start

Given how frustratingly intentional it is to get lost in oTorg’s LL, I wouldn’t be surprised at all for an LL map to be labeled that way.

Player: “You’re telling me every direction is East?”
Gm: “That’s what your compass says, anyway.”
Player: “. . . Aarrgh!”
Gm: “That’s the spirit! Here, have an extra Possibility for appropriate role play in the Living Land.”
(Sound of gm being strangled)
Koharu Saito
player, 29 posts
Mon 13 Jul 2020
at 01:36
  • msg #287

Re: OOC to start

Trying to solve what is totally a mental problem by launching an all-out bare-handed attack against the perceived source?  Also totally appropriate for the Living Land!  I don't see how any reasonable GM in that situation could press charges.

(Though I really want to explore more deeply this compass that points towards East.)
Dr. Sita Chandrasakar
player, 38 posts
Mon 13 Jul 2020
at 04:08
  • msg #288

Re: OOC to start

In reply to Koharu Saito (msg # 287):

Heh. Well, it always points north.

. . . It just also is always pointing at a right angle to whatever direction you're facing, no matter which way you happen to turn.

Now disconnect, for thinking about "right angles", and manipulating a "dead thing", and other such impossible stuff. :)
Sapphire
player, 102 posts
Mon 13 Jul 2020
at 04:28
  • msg #289

Re: OOC to start

Oh dear, how embaressing. I totally missed that being a joke, and looking back I'm just feeling dense. Very funny.

I think the compass curse affected me! never mind the map
Ben Altman
player, 46 posts
Damage: S:1
Pos: 4 Exp: 0
Thu 16 Jul 2020
at 08:13
  • msg #290

Re: OOC to start

Can we have a thread for all the active buff (and future penalties) that would include what is the effect, who is affected and for how long.

Thanks
Sapphire
player, 104 posts
Thu 16 Jul 2020
at 09:37
  • msg #291

Re: OOC to start

Good idea

Why not just use the first post in cards in play?
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