* Power 36 +5 (Black) +1 (Brown) = 42 - A large force of diverse, trained, and competent soldiers. You probably also have the services of a small navy as well. Several banner houses are sworn to you.

There have been some suggestions here. To avoid misunderstandings, can those who have them please post them here.

One banner house, indifferent towards rest of resources.

 I assume a banner house does not just become one player's private house to play alongside our's, yes?  It is constructed just like our house, with input from everyone?

Me and White have already began making rolls for it, as GM ruled that way. Don't know how we proceed further, I am rather OK with both.

White started the banner house as his pet project before we even knew if it would be a thing or not.

Now that it is being reconstructed, I think input from all would be fair. Orange and White has made the rolls for the house, would that be fine with everyone or do you want to roll too?

Seven knows we could use some rerolls.

I want to have some rolls for banner house, I might be the bastard born from it possible

In reply to Gray (msg # 3):

Technically they are another house created by that houses members. It is on reason why the only input I've offered in the main thread is the defense options.

A) a lord doesn't have direct say in what his banner houses are. The Banner is loyal and supplies troops.

B) we already see how long this is taking. Even with bad rolls, orange and I will be done at latest, tomorrow.

C) subverting my main character concept will make me sad. :-(

D) at the end of the day, I will do what the GM says...even if that means a new character concept.

E) just because i wanted an E

Hum, and what about Black? Seems like he wants to play someone from the banner house.

Yeah...it is why I am slowly not liking the idea. Had everything ready to go and I has to be nice! Lol my niceness kills me again! :-)

In reply to White (msg # 10):

I knew you'll hate me. :(

It will take a lot to make me hate anyone.

Let's just see how the things play out.

You get to pick stuff for the primary house, but we don't get to pick stuff for the banner house?

I am very flexible on working with you on banner house.

PM your idea, am sure I will agree with most and might only offer small suggestions.  Plus would give some chance to reroll a bad roll or two.

Maybe the compromise solution would be that each of us gives up one of our rolls and gives them to Black, both for starting resources and for events, while keeping the others.  If GM was fine with that. Also, I'd amke it clear that Black is the last one we are taking, because we cannot have like 40% of the players playing the banner house. Kinda defeats the point.

How would that defeat the point? It may not be intentional, but I am getting a strong vibe of "we want to play, but we don't want to do what you are doing"

Wasn't the whole purpose of not having two houses for the players because Dragondog didn't want to have to go back and forth with different storylines?

Since it's a banner house, the storyline would be the same. However, I kinda think that it is important that those playing the bannerhoue be somewhat independent and allow to keep the stuff they already defined because it is part of their character's background.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:44, Thu 11 June 2020.

In reply to Gray (msg # 13):

As I said, I am picking nothing.  Once I started this with the GM, the only post I made regarding picks is the one in the defense thread.  As it stands now, I will most likely just abandon the whole thing because we don't need to take 2 years designing houses...which is all it would be.  Especially as, at the end of the day, the whole background for the house, as initially written and approved would be worthless.

It isn't 2 storylines...but at this point it is a dead idea to me.

Sorry to hear that, and for whatever part I played in that occurrence. I think I missed whatever your initial idea was in the chaos of things.

I vote for 3 banner houses!
1 for orange
1 for white
1 to do our collective bidding
35 points

1 trained Garrison - 5 points

If we go for a banner house, I'd probably spend the rest on:
Trained Archers (6)
Trained Garrison (5)
Trained Cavalry (8)
Green Garrison (3)

If we have all 42:
Veteran Cavalry (10)
Veteran Infantry (9)
Trained Archers (6)
Trained Garrison (5)
Trained Scouts (5) (Seems appropriate given the Hill Clans nearby)
Trained Infantry (7)

One option would be that players only influence the details of one house. Either the main house or the banner house. What do you think of that?

I am against it because lack of agency in matters of bannerhouse that  liege house players have  is balanced by the facts that banner house is less powerful and subservient.

In reply to Dragondog (msg # 23):

I am for it. If someone has autonomy in his or her banner house decisions, then the main house discussions should be left to the rest of us.

Unless someone else has a conflict, might I suggest that Black remains with House Silverswift as Sgt at Arms?
Has anyone else thought of such a position? The military aspect is an important one.

In reply to Orange (msg # 24):

I'm fine with everyone having input

In reply to Purple (msg # 26):

We need a commander, indeed.

I had been considering that, if I play the uncle to the kids, that he could have been a knight and veteran of the war and probably now acting as master-at-arms for the House. I am still avoiding making a solid character choice though till we actually finish writing up the House and fleshing out their story.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:42, Thu 11 June 2020.

In reply to Gray (msg # 28):

Oh, that works well! And I could listen to your war stories.

As the discussion seems to have moved on from the banner house, I assume that we have no more input on the matter.


So I'm going to rule that players have input on one or the other.

So, since White and me contributed to House rolls, are they redoing it?
This message was last edited by the player at 20:35, Thu 11 June 2020.

I'm fine with the rolls remaining where they are. We'd have to redo the assignments from the beginning if we did that.

Ok, I already pitched in on most of house's resources. If my vote is deciding anywhere, feel free to disregard it.

A superior castle requires at least 200 men to man the walls, that’s how much Winterfell required.

2 trained garrison units 5 each - 10
1 trained Mountain Guerilla - 5
1 trained archers - 6
Aforementioned banner house - 20

Three rules doesn't have that requirement.

 An archer garrison might be a good thing to have with our normal garrison.  There is your 200 soldiers to hold the castle.

In reply to Red (msg # 34):

I'd prefer knights to Guerillas, because while I see the usefulness of Guerillas in mountain warfare, knights are more suited to the Westerosi way of war, and cavalry are easier to command (-3 instead of +3).

Not all Superior Castles are alike. The Eyrie is one, and requires a much smaller garrison than Winterfell, and so is Harrenhal, requiring a much larger garrison. I think we can assume ours doesn't require a 200 man garrison; in general castles are designed to be held with a small a number of men as possible.

Doesn't mountain terrain cause problems for cavalry?

EDIT: Mechanically, that is.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:20, Thu 11 June 2020.

Gold:
Banner house: 20

Trained Garrison- 5
Trained Archers- 6
Green Infantry- 4
Green Personal Guard- 6

I like the diversity Gold suggests.

It seems the three of us agree on one unit of trained garrison and one unit of trained archers.

So that's 11 power, a banner house is 20, if everyone else agrees to this then we can focus on the 11 power which we still can use.

I like the idea of a personal guard since it would align with the idea of our house having fought in the rebellion and gained fame through some great deed.

In reply to Purple (msg # 40):

Thanks, though originally I wanted to take 2 units of trained archers.. sadly we don't have enough power to afford them and the personal guard

In reply to Gold (msg # 39):

Green soldiers only have 20 XP, so it's not really worth the huge investment it takes to get Personal Guards if they're going to be Green. Ironic coming from me, Green, but there it is. We could afford Trained Personal Guard, Green Garrison, Trained Garrison and Trained Archers if we wanted (We could go for Green Guerillas or Scouts instead, but only if our Commander is reaaaaaly something special)

Seconded.
I just read up on Mountain Guerillas... if there is a way we could afford more of them or to make them elite, I would... they are so cool!!!

I also agree that all of our units be a minimum of “trained.” A house of our influence and recent glory should be in the process of training their troops to be elite, not babysitting noobs on the walls of our superior castle.

I'm very sorry for going off topic but I just read "Mountain Gorillas" and it brought a smile to my face imagining our house to be guarded by gorillas.. The Narrator would have to bring Dragons to fight us.


If we keep our trained garrison and trained archers... we indeed could get two trained Guerilla fighters, one melee and another archery (Yes I like archery)

Those Guerilla armies could totally be trained to fight in mountains... I guess with those we don't really need a personal guard.

No Gorillas. I don't want King Kong taking me to the top of Storm's End and swatting at Dragons.

In reply to Gold (msg # 45):

Guerillas can fight both ranged and melee. We'd need a good commander, though. They are harder to command.

Depending on what Wealth holdings we choose, we may have to move Brown's +1 to Defense so that we can afford it and still have a superior castle.

So, who is our banner house?

Black, Orange, and White are in the banner house. They are working on creating it for us.

White,Orange and Black

I know they are making it, but as they are vassals to our house, I assume we would know who they are and why we agreed to take them under our banner. Were they founded by a knight that our lord granted land? Were they a minor house that needed protection and swore fealty? Who is it we are trusting to uphold our interests aid us in times of conflict?

That kind of stuff.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:14, Fri 12 June 2020.

Once we have the house finalized we will be able to give you the  information. We are still working out the details as you are also.

Feel fee to contact White as we have designated him  as our  primary coordinator, he is also still working out some more details with the DM.

Green, Red, and Gold have suggested three different sets of trips.  Brown preferred Red's. Gray and Purple duo you have a preference? Our a suggestion off your own?


I'm on my tablet,  so l can't list them here.

Garrisons are great for defense, but gain negative modifiers elsewhere. Let’s limit it to one unit.
Mountain guerrillas are a must for us, but let us start with only one unit of those as well and since we can’t afford a direct infantry, let’s get the next best thing, plains guerrillas. And always archers.


Banner house : 20
Trained Garrison : 5
Trained Mountain Guerrillas : 5
Trained Plains Guerrillas : 5
Trained Archers : 6
This message was last edited by the player at 08:51, Sat 13 June 2020.

In reply to Purple (msg # 54):

Not trying to have a say in y'alls design process, but, the Mountains of the Moon have Hills and Mountins, how would you get trained in Plains?

Just a question for thought.

There have to be a few flat plains around there somewhere.

In reply to Purple (msg # 54):

Maybe they were trained somewhere else and send as dowry with one of the wives who hails from less elevated region.

Just wanna inform our lieges that Name, colors and words of the banner House have been decided upon as well as land features,

Name: Cragborn of Cragkeep
Colors: Argent and azure, one of symbols is full moon
Words: All bite and no bark!

Land features:

Mountain
Hamlet
River
Hills
Stream* 2
Grassland

Might I suggest:
 Trained Archers
 Green Cavalry
 Trained Garrison
 Trained Guerrillas (mountain)

The cavalry aren't as hard to control as other green units, and this way we have other forces afield that can more safely engage in melee. Guerrillas are useful for the sneak attack, but they are quite squishy.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:16, Sat 13 June 2020.

I think I prefer Gray’s suggestion. One Guerilla troop is enough, I’ll take care of the archers and someone else can lead the others.

  Mrrgh... seems I was right, no cavalry or siege weapons on mountain terrain. I kind of wish we had taken a road as a domain feature now, haha.

Where did you read that we cannot have cavalry in the mountains?

Page 182 of the GoT edition core book.

Thank you.

Does that leave us with the following suggestions?

Gold:
Banner house: 20

Trained Garrison- 5
Trained Archers- 6
Green Infantry- 4
Green Personal Guard- 6


Green:
Trained Archers (6)
Trained Garrison (5)
Trained Cavalry (8)
Green Garrison (3)

Red:
2 trained garrison units 5 each - 10
1 trained Mountain Guerilla - 5
1 trained archers - 6
Aforementioned banner house - 20

Purple:
Banner house : 20
Trained Garrison : 5
Trained Mountain Guerrillas : 5
Trained Plains Guerrillas : 5
Trained Archers : 6
This message was last edited by the GM at 16:40, Sat 13 June 2020.

My vote would be for either Gold or Red's suggestions

Well, unfortunately, we can't have cavalry, so Green's complete suggestion isn't viable.

We can't use cavalry in our home domain, it doesn't mean we cannot have cavalry at all. Still useful for fighting outside our lands.

That is true.

I guess leave my suggestion on there given that, I hadn't considered it initially. Haha

I wonder if cavalry can just be used as heavy infantry when dismounted?

I wouldn't think so. They're cavalry. So they fight on horseback.

 Yeah, but just because they cannot use their horses doesn't mean they don't know how to fight. Getting unhorsed is a common occurrence, evidently knights in Westeros refrain from naming their war mounts for that very reason.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:37, Sat 13 June 2020.

Definitely, but then we have two troops for the price of one. Unless there are specific rules for that in the book.
This message was last edited by the GM at 17:40, Sat 13 June 2020.

Except we don't because they can only act as one or the other at any given time. So we either have cavalry, or we paid too much for infantry (depending on where we are fighting)

If we pay for cavalry, we have cavalry. And cavalry cannot be used in the mountains. And now you're suggesting a workaround for that that makes cavalry more useful than they are.

Core rule book pg111 Cavalry can dismount and become infantry, but their cost Remains unchanged.

Im not though, it actually says it right in the description for Cavalry units.

"A cavalry unit that dismounts becomes infantry (though the cost does not change)."

EDIT: Ah, thanks Red.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:29, Sat 13 June 2020.

Thank you. I missed that.

In reply to Red (msg # 75):

Awesome. In that case:
Banner house : 20
Green Garrison : 3
Trained Mountain Guerrillas : 5
Trained Archers : 6
Trained Cavalry : 8
This message was last edited by the player at 18:42, Sat 13 June 2020.

That looks good to me, Purple.

Gold:
Banner house: 20

Trained Garrison- 5
Trained Archers- 6
Green Infantry- 4
Green Personal Guard- 6


Green:
Trained Archers (6)
Trained Garrison (5)
Trained Cavalry (8)
Green Garrison (3)

Red:
2 trained garrison units 5 each - 10
1 trained Mountain Guerilla - 5
1 trained archers - 6
Aforementioned banner house - 20

Purple: Gray
Banner house : 20
Green Garrison : 3
Trained Mountain Guerrillas : 5
Trained Archers : 6
Trained Cavalry : 8


That leaves Brown. Do you have an opinion on these or a suggestion of your own?
This message was last edited by the GM at 21:03, Sat 13 June 2020.

Out of those choices... I still agree with Red.

I still like mine or Purple’s I’m not too fond of two units of garrisons

 Purple's is a solid choice. Golds' I think would be good if it was trained Personal Guard and Infantry, Green Archers/Garrison.

I'll change my vote to Purple so we can finish this. I guess we can always train some personal guard later.. I think this means that we'll follow Purple's troop roster.

Red: Brown
2 trained garrison units 5 each - 10
1 trained Mountain Guerilla - 5
1 trained archers - 6
Aforementioned banner house - 20

Purple: Gray, Green, Gold
Banner house : 20
Green Garrison : 3
Trained Mountain Guerrillas : 5
Trained Archers : 6
Trained Cavalry : 8

Then I'm calling it as:

Banner house : 20
Trained Garrison : 5
Trained Mountain Guerrillas : 5
Trained Plains Guerrillas : 5
Trained Archers : 6

Why? we had four votes for the other.

We have four votes: Purple, Gray, Green, Gold

Purple: Gray, Green, Gold
Banner house : 20
Green Garrison : 3
Trained Mountain Guerrillas : 5
Trained Archers : 6
Trained Cavalry : 8

We weren't going for the plains guerrillas

I’m confused about why we would pay for a cavalry that looses effectiveness In the mountains without a road (and we didn’t pay to have a road with our land).

I also think we need more than a green garrison to defend our superior castle so it doesn’t just have new mountain clan owners. If they were elite, math says they wouldn’t even have to roll for most encounters as long as they were defending the castle... they would auto pass without rolling.

Knights can be used as uparmored infantry any time they cannot use their horses, anywhere not in our mountains, they'll be their same ol' cavalry (which are pretty powerful).

We don't just have a garrison to protect the castle. It can hold up to 10 units so we could defend it with all of our troops (thus giving them that +12 defense bonus)

Sorry about that, I copied the wrong entry. Thanks Gray for pointing that out. It should be:

Banner house : 20
Green Garrison : 3
Trained Mountain Guerrillas : 5
Trained Archers : 6
Trained Cavalry : 8
This message was last edited by the GM at 05:36, Tue 16 June 2020.

In reply to Brown (msg # 89):


As Gray explained, cavalry can be used unmounted as infantry which we could use while defending but when we're attacking someone then we can use them as cavalry. (And we do have some Grassland and could meet the enemy there if we didn't want to risk a long siege)

The Garrison is the unit that's supposed to stay in the castle at all times (at least that's how I see it) but it's not the only unit that will stay there. I hope that we won't have to send our troops abroad all the time and in an emergency we could levy our peasants.

In reply to Gold (msg # 92):

Grassland is a feature ( I believe it allows you to grow a crop) ... the only two Land options in The Vale are hills and mountains (game physics). The grassland feature will not negate the penalty for cavalry in the mountains. At least, that’s how I read it.

If we are planning on  attacking outside of our lands with our cavalry, I support the decision to buy them. However, they are not as versatile as you might think since,  on our mountain land (because grasslands are a feature and not a type of land) , they count as infantry.

I just didn’t want us to make the decision because of a misinterpretation of the rules.

Interesting, I find them to be versatile BECAUSE they can still be used as infantry even on terrain that normally would make them useless.

In reply to Gray (msg # 94):

Yes, but, unless we plan on using them outside of our lands, for offense instead of defense, we just have more expensive infantry. If we plan on using them outside of our lands, I am in favor of the purchase. Since commanding our forces won’t be my character’s role in the house, it is less of an issue for me. I just want to make sure we are protecting our one huge comfortable asset (superior castle with the best mine you can purchase in game that provides a comfortable lifestyle). I don’t think that the utility of cavalry (infantry unless we are fighting somewhere else), should come at the expense of protecting the basket we have put all our eggs in with only one GREEN garrison dedicated to manning the walls and protecting it.
But, as long as everyone has made an informed decision, I am fine with what everyone has chosen. It just seems that people thought that grasslands would negate the mountain penalty for cavalry, and the way I read it, it doesn’t. I could be wrong.

Right, buying a road is the only feature that I recall makes cavalry viable in mountain terrain. I wasn't of the impression otherwise.

Admittedly, another reason I was in favor of cavalry was because I was considering taking the Cadre benefit which gives my character a loyal veteran unit of warriors that are either "guards" or of a unit type the House has as part of their forces. So we'll have two for the price of one (and a bunch of XP I'm putting into Persuasion to be able to take the benefit), in addition to them being even better trained.

In reply to Gray (msg # 96):

If it helps with your character concept, then I am even more in favor of the purchase.

Yeah, it seems many are in favor of my veteran uncle concept, and I figured some loyal knights from his time during the rebellion would make for some cool flavor in addition to giving us some more military oomph.

3 words: mountain ... guerrilla ... cavalry. *mic drop*

(I know our starting power has been spent, but food for thought.)

  So guerrilla troops who can be on horseback when not in the mountains? Guerrillas also get short ranged attacks, if I remember right.

  Could be interesting.