In reply to Leander ex Flambeau (msg # 95):

"Regarding the suggestion of an extra vote. While the intent might be the preservation of our new creation, I believe giving us multiple votes is a very slippery slope. The lure of a new Tribunal is that of freedom and uncertainty that entails it; an opportunity for advancement, free of the guilds' politicking. With all due respect, I doubt anyone here wants to spawn the second Rhine."

In reply to Corvus ex Bjornaer (msg # 98):

"I've never been to the Rhine Tribunal. But I acknowledge what you're saying about granting the founders an extra vote. Perhaps simply granting the founders a vote now and during our first Tribunal?"

Malik chimes in from the table where he's sitting with Vespera.

"I expect nobody here wants to go to all the work of creating a tribunal, only to have it taken from us by an influx of other, older magi, once we've done the work of creating an established presence.  I agree that each founding member should have two votes, I actually think that may not be enough for us to keep control of what we build.  Since we are so diverse, we will perceive different threats; I think we each should spend some time contemplating what might threaten our collective control, and at the next meeting, make proposals accordingly."

Brontius frowns at some of the ideas being offered "I have no desire to chair these proceedings. But I'm the only one here apparently willing to do so and the only one with even marginal authority, such as it is. I would be more than happy to pass chairmanship on to anyone the assembly agrees.

I however cannot stomach the idea that we 'protect' our pet project that makes ever one of us hypocrites. We are young now but in a mere century the Tribunal will be thriving and we will be the old magi. Not granting wayward magi fair representation just because they were a season late to settle is the same logic that leads to the elderly holding sway in the western tribunals.

There need be no precedent established for apprentices voting if we choose. I merely proposed the idea because we will be magi by the time the tribunal is established properly.

I cannot agree to a blanket hospitality clause for all comers. My version of the hospitality rules is based on denying hospitality being the same as an attack. While we cannot stomach even a single attack on a fellow member of the order it is not unknown for magi to destroy entire villages of mundanes without censure so long as it does not bring ruin on our sodales. While I won't agree we should condone barbarism I also cannot in good conscience vote or promote a vote that would cause undue strain on our sodales. Non-interference to mundanes is what we swore to. Not an oath to aide."

Vespera purses her lips into a little frown, then shakes her head, a few strands of her hair coming loose from her braid. "As members of the Order of Hermes, I believe we are... obligated... bound by Oath.. to only ever have one vote at Tribunal."  She turns her head to Brontion, looking the Guernicus over a moment before her smile breaks out again, escaping her otherwise calm features. "Is that not true, Brontion?  Perhaps you think it strange that statement coming from a Tremere."

She turns to lay her hand softly upon Malik's arm, giving it a light squeeze. "I like the idea of offering hospitality.. for many reasons, but Brontion's concern is quite valid.  I would be very upset if someone came to my home trailing a cadre of soldiers chasing him, and asked for a bed for the night."

Malik shakes his head at Brontion.  "It's not hypocrisy, I never protested the system, I just want to be at the top of it, before I'm old enough to have no ambitions left anymore.  Finding and taking a new frontier is a great way to achieve that - in concert with all of you, but not in concert with anyone who comes along after we have done the hard part and wants to reap the rewards.  But if it's illegal for us to have multiple votes without multiple sigils, then never mind that."
This message was last edited by the player at 01:47, Sun 14 Mar 2021.

"You will have one vote at Tribunal and you will use it prudently" He quotes the Oath. "It is disturbing you have forgotten so easily. It is very much less cut and dry, being a legal system made up of humans. But it is there none the less."

Looking to the Tremere "I would argue that would be the very definition of bringing ruin on your sodales. So long as we don't make a precedent of guests being exempt of Hermetic crimes by guest right, something no one would agree too, I believe we are in the clear. On the other hand a Magus LEADING a cadre of soldiers... We swore not to harm each other. The wayward magus chose to cross the desert with an army, it should be his to tend to not a covenant that was only guilty of the crime of being directly on the route to Jerusalem, for example." He clearly means the very locale he himself has chosen to settle as a potential stop for crusaders traveling to the holy land.

"Obviously it would be in good taste to offer food and drink to a maga's retainers but all the rules of polite society need not be codified in law."

"For vagrancy we are not legally allowed to charge another magus with vagrancy so long as we are all by definition legal vagrants from the existing tribunals. Generally I wouldn't not like to have unknown magi wandering out holdings. But for the time being we know who everyone is. So long as the redcaps are able to full fill their duties to the errant magi without undo strain I see no reason that a maga who has declared themselves a resident to the rest of the Tribunal should not be allowed to move abut as they will. As it is a matter of convenience There is no reason I can see to not let vagrancy default to being acceptable until charges are levels against a vagrant magus."

"Is there a Redcap willing to chair this meeting? The chair is by common procedure only required to vote to break a tie. I would not be implicitly opposed to instituting this as a new tradition of our presumptive tribunal."

"While I feel that there seems to already be support for the motion, and no opposition, I still would like to say that I too support the idea of appointing the eldest Redcap as our Praeco. However, with most Redcaps not being able to learn the Parma due to not having The Gift, I also believe that it is essential that one of us provide our Praeco with the protection of the Parma. This should be common sense, of course. But I still feel that it should be said.

Also, if any Redcaps have yet to be included in the Parma of one of the Magi present, I believe I am capable of extending my protection to one more member of our Tribunal at this time."
This message was last edited by the player at 05:12, Sun 14 Mar 2021.

After Iapetus leaves them, Andre notes to Leander, "He names himself for one of our forefathers.   Do you think we should take this for good?", then with a chuckle, "or take offence?"
It was obvious that the smaller Giant-Kin was in good spirits about this.
And he had to respect the little man for approaching the two, with his war stories, and an interest in finding common ground.

Andre heard out the man's wisdom, with a nod.
He didn't add anything, though, and let the man go about his business.

But then the meeting was called to official order.   And along the way, more advice was given to the Giant-Kin ...
Again, he acknowledged the input, but said nothing.


Andre seemed happy to stand in the corner, and observe the ongoings ... quietly, and without his own intervention just yet.

Salma stands. "As Zahrah thankfully pointed out many of us have not introduced ourselves. I do not believe I have, at least to the majority of you. I will be Salma, when I choose my name so it makes sense that you get used to that name. My parens is Kalikrax of the Filii Pralicus, ex Miscellanea for those of you unaware of our tradition. Kalikrax must be one of the architects of this venture as I am sure he sought me out in Tunis specifically to be trained for this project of expanding the order into the lands of the Southern Continent. I am apprenticed at the covenant of Erebos, in the Theban Tribunal as I am sure you are aware by now. It is my hope, and the mandate of we Children of Pralix, that we expand our great Order and its theoretical framework by bringing those of exotic traditions into our fold and by researching ancient magical practices that might shed light on those holes of Bonisagus' theory. If any would be so kind as to let me know of sites or new traditions that you encounter I would be greatly appreciative though I can not say how I may be able to repay that gratitude."

As she would be unable to vote on the issue of whether those who are apprentices get to vote in this meeting Salma keeps quiet on that issue.

"As I have stated, I believe there is much we might learn from the Theban Tribunal's example, some I have mentioned before, some speaks to concerns expressed already and some perhaps no one here has thought of. Firstly, the definition of a covenant is important and varies from Tribunal to Tribunal. In Thebes, a covenant must have a purpose and a patron but it is otherwise quite similar to the covenants you know of elsewhere though this definition allows for a covenant such as Favonius which is built on boats. In Transylvania it has a completely different meaning to define rights of citizenship, or so I have heard." A quick glance to Vespera. "I doubt that a patron in the sense that Theban Magoi use it is something we need but a purpose that is of use to the tribunal as a whole and not merely the covenant itself and its inhabitants seems like it would be an important feature of the code within the lands we are planning to settle. It would also help us specialize and focus our efforts, knowing who might be of service in a particular manner."

"In Thebes, and a number of other Tribunals, there are rules for determining citizenship. The Theban Tribunal uses this to limit immigration from hostile areas bent on perverting their ways," another glance to Vespera, "and to ensure that those who immigrate will behave in a communal manner rather than merely for their own benefit. But it is used as a means of control in places such as Rome, or to limit more powerful neighboring tribunals from merely using them as a source to pillage of its vis in the case of Novgorod. We should not need to grant the founders of our new Tribunal with extra votes, merely limit the votes of those interlopers who might wish to abuse the Hermetic system," yet another glance to Vespera.

"I do not support nominating a redcap as our Archon for the first Tribunal, not because they are ungifted but because the rational manner to select a leader is by lot. I would also argue for, as I have already stated, a council. Our small size may allow for a council of three but a council of Archai is a much more stable arrangement than a single person."

Glancing at Brontius "And we should immediately decide that precedent is no way to form a legal code, that changes to the peripheral code must be voted upon by the body of citizens, not by the whims of Quaesitors or the political decision to prosecute a particular person in one manner or another."

"I believe there are other tools we might implement from the example of Thebes but those can wait until we are able to sit down during our first actual tribunal."

OOC: apologies for the slow response. I'm visiting family and while keeping abreast of what is written is easy enough on my phone I haven't had the chance for detailed response at the computer for a couple days.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:38, Sun 14 Mar 2021.

In reply to Salma ex Miscellanea (msg # 107):

Appolonius frowns "Appointing a Praeco by lot? That is madness! The Praeco should have the respect of the Tribunal, who would respect a Praeco who is chosen simply for their luck of the draw?"

In reply to Appolonius of Flambeau (msg # 108):

Iapetus rises to address the group.  "Our brother of Flambeau speaks wisely; one would hope that whoever serves as Praeco would have the respect of all of us; yet our sister of ex Miscellania is not wrong.  At this point, Fate is as good a guide as any; how can we gauge who among us we respect, when we do not know each other?"

He opens his arms, gesturing for the group to agree with him.  "While all of these topics are of importance, sodales, how can any of them be answered now?  We are not yet a tribunal; we will not be a tribunal for many years.  Praecos, voting, precedents - all of these matters cannot be determined through legal means, nor can any authority any one of us claims.  Our brother of Guernicus has knowledge, and we may rely on it, and him, but even he has no claim to leadership, as his reluctance to take up that mantle suggests he knows."

Iapetus shakes his head.  "We are, all of us, embarking on a journey; even if we agreed upon rules, on what authority would they be based, and how would we enforce them?  For me, it is enough to know where I will work to establish myself, and with whom I will work to do so.  I will uphold my Oath, and the rules of our Order.  If, strange as it may seem, I should come into conflict with another of the Order, I will agree here and now to defer resolution of that conflict until the first formal Tribunal we hold.  I will work with all of you to ensure that our new venture is not overtaken by those who do not share the risk. In truth, brothers and sisters, what more do we need to say?"

"I agree that we cannot decide on much now. We don't know each other or the lands we wish to settle. But we do need to decide on two things. Where we will hold our first Tribunal? And each of us must decide on what we will do to begin building our new homes until then."

Jaegar smiles, and waits for some of the excitement to wear down.

I agree wholeheartedly with our very large friend.

It appears difficult for us to decide on a structure for our tribunal, at this time. We need to see what kind of environment we are going into, first. It may also be helpful to set up our new homes before setting up the tribunal.

I would agree that we decide on a date and location for our first Tribunal. Then we can hash out what we need when we all have better information. Perhaps corresponding with each other, through our more than adequate Redcap network, would help clarify possible structures.

When we have charters for our new covenants, and have seen the environment for ourselves, we will all be in a better position to make decisions.

Vepera lets her best smile meet Salma's glance, the Tremere trying to let her contained cheerfulness meet the series of looks from the Ex Miscellanea.  She's well aware that the Theban Tribunal doesn't like her House, and she seems almost embaressedly pleased by the Pralixian's attention.

"We have a unique situation," she says, observationally, one hand gently over her middle, the other resting on the table next to her.  "This is a founding Tribunal, not a splinter from another realm.  We do not need to find reasons to found or scare off covenants from forming, instead we have to solidify our hold on the mystical landscape. Ideally without unnecessary strife from the locals."

"However, your claim that the most rational method of deciding our Praeco is by random lot? No, I don't agree at all. We need someone who has the temperament for order,  the respect of the Tribual, and the experience to guide. It should be voted upon, or the qualifications should be." Vespera takes a deep sigh and shakes her head, looking towards Salma with her best sorrowful gaze. "I do hope you do not lay your dislike of Gigas upon my breast. I would hate to find one of the few Maga in the Tribunal avoids me "

While the arguments have been going on Malleo has found his way to the food table and has gotten some more grapes and a goblet of wine.

“I suggested letting the redcaps be in charge for now, not to have the redcaps run our tribunal, but to let us gifted magi focus on forming our covenants. But if all we need to agree upon today is a place to hold a proper tribunal in two years time, and someone to be in charge of that tribunal I have a new suggestion.”

He points towards Salma ex Miscellanea, “Salma suggested a council of three and I’ll throw my support behind that suggestion.

That gives us two years to come up with proposals on how to organize our tribunal, gather support for our vision and when we meet again we will all be Journeymen and can vote on these issues as magi without the need to find excuses for giving apprentices votes.

As to who we should choose to be in charge of our first proper tribunal I suggest Salma ex Miscellanea, Vespera ex Tremere and Brontion ex Guernicus. They all seem to have strong meanings on how a tribunal should be run and I would think their opposing views on this matter might ensure that we’ll get a good discussion about this when we meet again as the magi of Africa. And who knows, when we meet again we might end up deciding we want the oldest Magi be Praeco, but when we decide we will be a tribunal deciding.

And if the concensus is that we should meet at the Mercere House in two years I’ll do my best to help the Redcaps prepare for a tribunal as it seems I’ll place my sanctum marker at that site.“

Malleo then hurries back to Giovanni and Iapetus.

“I think you're right Iapetus, we’re not a proper tribunal yet, we’re mostly a bunch of apprentices who are going to Africa. So let's just go there, get started and I’m sure there will be letters and meetings of magi grouping together hoping to have their vision of the tribunal win out. I don’t know whose idea will win out, but I think it’s better that we decide in Africa than here.”

In reply to Appolonius of Flambeau (msg # 108):


Reiner could hardly hold himself back from laughing at Appolonius' reaction, raising his right-hand high. "Oh, I would!"

Though after getting it out of his system and wiping a tear, he continues in more composed tone. "Ours is a more delicate situation and we should adapt accordingly. The usual approach of seniority has no merit here; we're all freshly, or soon-to-be gauntleted Magi. And when it comes to respect...Well! We're all perfectly respectable strangers here aren't we?"

He notions to Salma and then to Malleus as he speaks. "I support the idea of a council, as well as Salma's participation in it should she be willing, of course. Likewise, it would do us good if we hold our first official Tribunal in two years' time."
This message was last edited by the player at 08:50, Mon 15 Mar 2021.

In reply to Corvus ex Bjornaer (msg # 114):

If we're going on this council idea, which sounds good to me, then we can set three people for now, but at the first Tribunal, once we're all a bit settled, and have set up our covenants, go on to have the council comprised of the heads of the covenants? That way every covenant has it's voice in the council.

Longinus shakes his head and speaks up again.

“I must disagree with the suggestion that the council should be larger than three. Let us not boggle ourselves down with endless administration. Such structure will only limit us. Three is a good number, personally I approve of the Malleus’ nominations.

The council will listen to all the covenants plights and worries, a seat amongst them is not required for their attention. A small number will limit feuds and bad blood from haltering progress as well – Not that I hope that any such conflict will spring up in our soon to be home. Another problem with the precedent of every covenant getting a seat in the council would be that we could not limit the influence of covenants who server other tribunals. A council with a small membership is harder to infiltrate. “

"What possible merit could a council have. We already have a perfectly serviceable council of a score and sundry magi. For an executive council to matter it would have to have strong or notable executive power. I don't believe there are many here is in support of having a strong centralized Tribunal government. Especially at this point when there is nothing for them to govern. We need someone to chair a meeting and a date and time for that meeting to take place. To that end I believe the date should be two years hence on the solstice and the place should be decided on or before one year has passed. By that time we should understand our living situations sufficiently to know if we can manage the duty of hosting. Simply drawing lots from the volunteer covenants or from all the covenants if no volunteers are forth coming would be prudent."

He gives a nod to Iapetus "I did mention that, but it hardly seems like the Grand Tribunal would send us out with no intention of governing ourselves. Such an endeavor would be sure to fail. We will have to govern as normal and then move to ratify all previous rulings once we have legal status. As for authority to enforce rulings, it is as it has always been weight of numbers bearing a threat of force. Ultimately any rulings should be in the form of upholding the Oath anything beyond that is overreach."

Glaring at Salma "Which reminds me. We already have a basic legal framework in the form of the Oath. The Peripheral Code is peripheral tot he Oath itself. Hence the general use of precedent to define it. Justice cannot even be properly carried out without precedent. It is what says that if you and I do the same crime we will be charged the same. As for the 'whims of Quaesitors' clearly whatever hedge you were raised under didn't understand legal systems or law enforcement. A judgement is needed at the time, Quaesitors are necessary so that the judgement can be made by an expert, afterward the judgment is voted to be upheld by the voting body of the tribunal. Quaesitors don't invent the law we act fairly for all and our judgment is under the scrutiny of all."

Call it a council, call it co-chairs, does it matter as long as someone takes charge of the proper tribunal on African soil in two years time?

We’ll sort out stuff then and find the ways we want to govern ourselves.

It seems to me like no-one has voiced any protests or other suggestions as to where and when this tribunal is to take place so all we need is to agree on someone to chair it.

If three is to many I suggest we take it to the vote and since he has not sought the position for himself I put forth Broniton as the candidate.

Who is with me on this?

In reply to Malleus ex Verditius (msg # 118):


Aye.

I second the motion of Iapetus that we meet at the Mercere House, and do so in Winter of 1221.
I also suggest and second the motion to have a committee to preside over the next tribunal. As to the last item suggested, if we only have on Guericus, he needs to take that role at the next tribunal, with the remaining two committee members co-chairing.

As 3 motions have been made, and seconded, I call for a vote. Then I suggest we adjourn this meeting and prepare for our coming adventures.

OOC, what is the schedule, and what year are we in now? I know it has been posted, but I haven't figured out how to search this site yet.

From the Setup thread.

Alpha SG:

Based on the established years for Tribunals and simplicity for spring/summer/fall/winter order and so putting everything essentially on April 1:

1218 - meeting at Harco
1219 - meeting up at covenant sites in Africa
1221 - Tribunal
1227 - Tribunal
1228 - Grand Tribunal

I figured two years to get established was probably better than one. Some magi may be setting up labs and building devices to help them travel in addition to founding their covenants. So a single year seemed tight to me.

"Mercere house is as good as any it seemed better to have walls and roofs constructed before we decided on who's covenant to hold an event. Aye, just to get it out of the way."

"Having a meeting chaired by a council is absurd. A chairman needs to be an individual so they can perform their duties without discussion among itself. Ultimately any such notion will just be a meeting chaired by the chairman of the council. Or worse a meeting that cannot progress because 3 magi have to discuss things like recognizing a magus of the tribunal to speak. Nay, for the sake of sanity Nay."

"I appreciate my sodales support and I will, of course perform any duties assigned to me. I naturally cannot promote myself. Vote as you see fit all of you. But to dismiss doubts a deputized Hoplite can perform the duties that a Quaesitor would normally perform at need. Or I could request another Quaesitor be brought from abroad. But in either case I must Abstain."