This thread is for vetting spell designs, both ritual/formulaic as well as spontaneous spells you might use commonly. Finished spell designs will be posted on the wiki for reference.

Proposed spell for Iapetus:



Quenching Spring (CrAq15)

Touch, Sun, Individual

Base 4: Create a spring with a low rate of flow.

+1 Range Touch, +2 Duration Sun, final PL = 15

The caster touches the ground, and a gentle flow of water emerges, as from a small natural spring.  The flow is drawn from natural groundwater, and is entirely mundane; it quenches thirst, can be used to clean, etc. but offers no other benefits.  The flow from the spring lasts until the next sunrise / sunset.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:33, Mon 01 Mar 2021.

Oh... that spring I was thinking.

Bounding Spring
CrTe 25 (Base 5, +1 Size, +2 Voice, +0 Momentary, +1 Complexity)
You create a coil of metal under tension below a target. Instantaneously after it is summoned the tension releases and launches the target 10-Size paces into the air.

In reply to Player 16 (msg # 2):

That spring looks good to go.

Proposed Spell:

Form of the Roc - MuAn25
R: Personal, D: Sun, T: Ind
Casting this spell, the caster, if he's in Animal form, will increase in size by +9, so a Golden eagle (Size -2), would grow into Size +7, bigger than an elephant, and possibly capable of lifting one, since the change in Size adds +18 Str, and -9 Qik.
(Base 4, Sun +2, +3 Size)
This message was last edited by the player at 18:21, Fri 26 Feb 2021.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 1):

Macrinus' proposed spells.

Three modifications of existing spells, one new:

1. That's Not How I Remember That (MuMe 5), Like Recollections of Memories Never Quite Lived (core, p. 149), except Moon Duration (Base 1, +1 Eye, +3 Moon)

2. Run Like the Wind (MuCo 5), Adapted from Avalanche of Flesh of Steel (MoH p. 49) Causes target to be able to run as fast as a horse for the duration (Base 2, +1 Touch, +2 Sun)

3. Dust to Dust (PeCo 10), As core p. 132, except Touch range (Base 5, +1 Touch)

4. Freshly Woven (Cr(Re)An 20) This spell conjures a rough cloak/blanket out of wool. The Cr creates the wool from a large sheep, and the Re weaves it. Requires an Int + Finesse roll of 9 (Base 5, +1 Touch, +2 Sun)

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 5):

Looks good. I would note within it the Str +18, Qui -9 shift that happens.

In reply to Player 7 (msg # 6):

Unless there is something really odd in the specifics, any R/D/T adjustment to a canonical spell can be assumed to be fine.

4. This looks stuck between two approaches. If you're creating lots of wool and then the Rego puts it together, then you need a Group Target for all that wool. But you can entirely skip Rego, as shown by *Gird the Steed for War* (MoH p.47) or, and closer to yours, *Clothe the Naked Form* (MoH p.58). But then there is the treated & processed bit. It's unfortunately much harder than *Clothe the Naked Form* (MoH p.58) because the base is CrAn 5 instead of CrHe 1.

Clothe the Naked Form is exactly what I'm looking for. I only put points in Animal to cast my proposed spell. I'll simply move them over to Herbam.  Even better, these gives me 10 more spell levels to use!

Macrinus has Shapeshifting, and thus has to discard clothes when traveling.

You might also consider having a small sack and spells to shrink things. Then you can dump stuff in the sack, change shape, and fly off carrying the sack. Golden eagles can carry a surprising amount, not that you'd want to push your limits most likely.

Tactile Telekinesis (Touch range Rego movement spells) are also really easy, You could easily have a spell that would allow an Eagle to swoop down and fly away with a loaded wagon or filled Santa Clause sack... ReHe 5 (Base 3, +1 Touch, +1 Conc, +0 Individual (since an individual of wood is pretty big))

Was thinking about something like this for my magus?

Solitaire Rehearsal of Great Deeds / Phantasm to Aid the Bragging Magus
CrIm 15
R: Voice, D: Performance, T: Individual
As the Storyteller begins telling his recount, Images of personas and scenery appears around the caster. Acting out the scene described by the story. Moving around the narrator and audience, but not further than the casters voice can reach. The illusions are visible, capable of moving on their own and creating noise but are rather simple in detail. However, they cannot affect the other three senses. The illusions disappear as the Storyteller finishes their tale.
(Base 2, Voice +2, Performance +1, Move under your command +2)

With Clothe the Naked Form I can easily make small sacks, to hold things while Shapeshifting. Muto is going to be one of my areas of study, so I could shrink things.

An individual of Herbam is "a plant roughly one pace in each direction." If that's solid wood, that is quite a lot. I'm planning to get The Unseen Porter to move larger things.

Not without additional ranks for versatility... But it's also a pretty trivial spontaneous spell to make a sack.

In reply to Player 10 (msg # 12):

I made another one as well.

Captivated Audience by illegitimate Mean
MuMe 20
R: Voice D: Performance, T: Group
As the Storyteller begins telling his recount, the curiosity of the listeners is greatly enhanced. The audience feelings are altered to the point that they are unwilling to do anything other than listen to the story until its conclusion. Though not unconscious, the targets are all but completely unaware of their surroundings due to being completely engulf in the story.  An engulf target must make Intelligence stress roll to take any direct action. A roll of 12+ ends the spell, while a roll of 9+ lets the character take the intended action, but the spell remains in effect.
(Base 3, Group +2, Voice +2 Performance +1)
This message was last edited by the player at 22:57, Sat 27 Feb 2021.

In reply to Player 10 (msg # 12):

I like the spell. I think it might be +1 each for moving image and complexity, which is a wash. But from the description this seems like Group. I think there is a canon spell like this I can check against in a bit.

Vicious Natural Weapons - MuAn25
R: Personal, D: Diameter, T: Ind
Upon casting this spell, 3 of the caster's natural weapons gain the benefits of their Large quality (Claws become Large Claws, Teeth become Large Teeth, etc.).
(Base 15, Diameter +1, +1 Magnitude to affect more than one natural weapon)

Having done the "Animals of Mythic Europe" pdf, I think most animals there don't have more than 3 natural weapons anyway. And the few who might, either have one as a Large version, or one of them is a grapple.
I think it would take the base 20 guideline to upgrade a Large version, and we'll probably need to eventually figure our what that might look like, if it's even possible.

In reply to Player 10 (msg # 12):

Found them: Told Story and Story of Legend (MoH p.124).

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 18):

Oh that very similar indeed. Guess i will just note down "Told Story" for now and invent a higher level version of the spell later.

Was it my coiled piece of metal under tension spell that was approved or the hole in the ground producing water spell that was approved?

Absorbing the enraged fire
PeIg 10 Base 4, +1 for 10 dmg, +1 Touch

Being immune to fire, Baqir learned this spell to estinguish fire at range Touch. He touches a fire and absorb the energy that keep it enraging, and by doing that the fire disappear.

Inner Flames of Al-Arath
Cr(Re)Ig 20 Base 10, +1 Size, +1 Re requisite

Being immune to fire, Baqir releases his inner flame and burn everything near him. The flames reach 30 paces away (more? Less?) and anyone caught in this radius makes a Dexterity stress roll of 12+ or take +15 of fire damage. Flammable objects in this radius are set on fire.

(The Rego requisite is to expand the flames, can it stops my clothes from burning too?)

Based on Burst of The Sweeping Flame and Crest of the Earth Wave.

Incantation of the Barrier
ReVi 20 Base 5, +1 Touch, +0 Circle, +2 Ring
(or ReVi 15 with Base 4)

Baqir draws a circle with chalk while chanting the Qu'ran, upon finishing any creature of the Magic Realm (in particular Jinn of the Magic Realm) can't cross the drawn circle, can't act across, and can't directly or indirectly destroy it.
This is a useful spell for a sahir, not all jinn are friendly.
This message was last edited by the player at 10:12, Sat 27 Feb 2021.

Sorry, I thought you were joking around with the earlier post. Coiled springs weren't invented until much later. You could study the leaf springs from Roman chariots or the Egyptian crude springs in chariots or leaf-spring-like tweezers. With some time studying you might invent the coiled spring. But I don't think there should be a coiled-spring spell prior to having an idea about coiled springs.

In reply to Player 10 (msg # 15):

Captivate Audience seems fine. It only affects a small crowd, of course.

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 17):

That looks fine.

In reply to Baqir Al-Andalus (msg # 21):

Absorbing... spell looks fine. I'd write it as General and set the fire damage it can handle based on the level.

Inner Flames... Is this more like the spell you mentioned or is it more like Last Flight of the Phoenix (HoH:S p. for less damage? I want to make sure description, effects, etc. are consistent between all these. I'd write it as General and set the damage relative to the level.

Incantation... This is just Circular Ward Against Demons v. a different realm. I'd write it as General and set what it blocks relative to the level.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 25):

I agree to write all the spells as General, setting the damage based on level.

Inner Flames is more like Last Flight of the Phoenix, so I'll write that with less damage bringing it to CrIg 20.

In reply to Baqir Al-Andalus (msg # 26):

Great. General is better for you, too, since it makes it easier to invent stronger ones and there is only one Mastery Ability.

Last Flight of the Phoenix, if just adjusted for level to make this one, is also part of the same General spell.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 1):

Dagger of the Hand (MuCo(Te) 10) Changes one of caster's hands into a dagger, to be used for brawling or cutting.  (Base 2, +1 Conc, +1 Part, +2 Metal) Does this require a Finesse roll?

In reply to Macrinus ex Tytalus (msg # 28):

Don't see why it would. It's no roll to make a simple functional dagger with creo.

In reply to Macrinus ex Tytalus (msg # 28):

I don't buy that that's a MuCo(Te) base 2. This isn't making their fingernails bigger to be claws. This is transforming a chunk of their body into metal. Notice that the base for changing the animal claws/bite/horns is noticeably higher than this.

In reply to Player 10 (msg # 15):

Updated this one slighlty and made another using basically the same guidlines. Maybe they would be better as target: room? I am not quite sure.

The Epic Inspired by Every Single Listener
MuMe 20
R: Voice D: Performance, T: Group
As the Storyteller tells his narrative, the audience memories are altered in a major way. The listeners start to recall the story as if it happened to them, rather then something they just heard. Though the protagonist of the story might be called another name, those affected by the spell will still believe it clearly is their own deeds that the caster is describing. This recollection usually results in an appropriate personality trait of +5. If the target gives the narrative some thought and concentration, and makes an Intelligence roll of 9+, the memory is revealed as false.
(Base 3, Group +2, Voice +2 Performance +1)

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 30):

Right, it should be base 25 +part. You are turning apart of yourself into metal. Ya it's not worth it for that guideline but that's how you would do it.

Even giving yourself claws would be base 10 to bring in the animal part.

In reply to Player 10 (msg # 31):

The Epic Inspired by Every Single Listener, you may want to give it a longer duration. you can still cast it while performing but with Performance duration the change in their memory ends immediate when the story does.

EDIT: I am also unsure about the part that gives them a personality trait.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:16, Sat 27 Feb 2021.

Ok, I saw "Change someone to give them a minor ability" as a MuCo 2 guideline.  There's a MuAn 3 guideline that's "Change an animal's limb" Would Dagger of the Hand work as a level 15 spell? (Base 3, +1 Concentration, +1 Part, +2 Metal)

In reply to Macrinus ex Tytalus (msg # 34):

It's really more how Player 4 stated, which is a terribly high base. Changing a person (or part) into a non-living object is very hard. You're better off going with claws than with a dagger for something like this. Or just CrTe a dagger.

CrTe a dagger is a 15, (Base 5, +1 Touch, +1 Conc) I'll have to wait to later to do that.

Ok, a few spell ideas for approval. They aren't that odd but I feel I do need approval regarding the "specific type":

Close the Solomonic Portal
PeVi Gen R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
This spell cancels the effect of any Solomonic Travel spell if (spell level + 10 + stress die[no botch]) is greater than the level of the Solomonic Travel spell.
(Base effect, +2 voice)

Still the Lying Tongue of the Sahir
ReVi Gen R: Voice, D: Sun, T: Ind
The target of this spell may not use any Solomonic Storytelling magic with a level less than or equal to (spell level - 5)
(Base Effect, +2 Voice, +1 Conc)

Foil the Sahir's Escape
ReVi Gen R: Voice, D: Diam, T: Ind
The target of this spell may not use any Solomonic Travel magic with a level less than or equal to (spell level - 5)
(Base Effect, +2 Voice, +1 Conc)

As a side note, I was unable to determine the manner in which Sahir gain MR, if they do or if it is merely their Magical Defenses which are always relatively low being similar to Form Bonuses. I may be missing something but I'm trying to avoid a deep read of a form of magic I'm not going to practice while I'm trying to build a few characters.

In reply to Salma ex Miscellanea (msg # 37):

I don't think Sahirs have any kind of MR? They sure have unique Magical Defenses that work akin to Form bonuses, but they gain no MR from it.

In general Perdo / Rego Vim magic that affects other "specific" kinds of magic requires you to have knowledge of said magic. Hedge Magic Revised, Gruagach chapter makes a couple of suggestions on how this would look like. Namely Magic Lore of 5 and relevant Area Lore of 2 are given suggestions. Organization Lore for Suihar Suleiman definitely sounds like a good fit too.

Edit: Nevermind me, I forgot Salma is a Pralixian, right? Analyzing one Sahir with the Solomonic Travel should be enough. Comprehend Magic is awesome.
This message was last edited by the player at 03:44, Sun 28 Feb 2021.

I also assume a Pralician who travelled extensively around the Mediterranean, as her Parens did,  would have the sort of experience to invent those spells as well and anyone can learn these spells from a lab text far as I understand. Note I’m not taking any anti-Settuten and I’m a lot more scared of some of their stuff.

In reply to Salma ex Miscellanea (msg # 37):

Leaving aside the question of knowledge, figuring if your parens had it, your parens could have passed it to you, my big question is what Rego Vim base you're using. I'm unaware of it. Are you using the version of the same guideline as Maintaining the Demanding Spell and Suppressing the Wizard's Handiwork that is for a spell cast by another? You usually cast these spells on a spell and it is sustained/suppressed for the duration. It seems like you're trying to do roughly this PeVi guideline:

but using ReVi instead, which generally won't work. AotH is noted as an exception.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 40):

HoH:S p129:
New Spell Guideline
Rego Vim

General: Sustain or suppress a spell of a specific type cast by another with level less than the level + 2 mag-nitudes of the Vim spell. Examples of specifics types include Hermetic Terram magic and Shamanic spirit control magic.

Same page see the example spell Quiet the Cursing Tongue. My understanding is the target in this case is the person, not the spells.

In reply to Salma ex Miscellanea (msg # 41):

Yup, that's the guideline I referenced. But I'd missed that spell's alternative use for it. OK, looks good.

I have a couple:

Wizard's Fling ReTe 35 Base: 25  Voice(+2) Mom Ind     Hurl a stone projectile; +25 damage; Range Inc. 20

Main question is whether the guidelines in Societas go beyond +15 damage; siege weapons can get up to +25 so didn't try to go beyond that

Wizard's Far Step  ReIm 20  Base: 4 Per Sun(+2) Ind     As Wizard's Sidestep (ArM 147) but image appears up to 15 paces away.

Not sure exactly how an improved Wizard's Sidestep should work; possibility of a higher defense bonus, and/or extending how many attacks automatically miss.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 42):

Yeah, on rereading the guideline I feel like your reading is what it says but since I assume the same author wrote the guideline and the sample spell it’s an issue of them not writing the guideline accurately to their intent.

Sidestep of the Magus
ReIm 15
R: Per, D: Sun, T: Ind
As Wizard's Sidestep but includes the sounds of the target as well. This allows the magus to interact verbally with someone without giving away their actual location, a finesse roll is required to keep the appearance that they are talking directly to that person.
(base 2, +2 Sun, +1 changing image, +1 moved image matches changes, +1 for a second sense)

Might also make them more difficult to find once the image is hit the first time increasing the defense bonus but the important part for me is the illusion of normalcy as I approach an unknown hedge practitioner.

EDIT: Side note: I looked for synonyms of sidestep and "pussyfoot" came up and while I was tempted I realized that probably wasn't dignified enough for magi.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:30, Sun 28 Feb 2021.

Is Touch range always enough to cast Maintain the Demanding Spell on a spell you are concentrating on or do you need voice or further range for a spell you cast on someone else?

Wow, I was just about to ask this! Is the target of Maintaining the Demanding Spell the target of the original spell, or the person who would otherwise need to be concentrating?

Arguably the presented spell is designed so that one magus can assist another by touch, or so that an item enchanted with it as an effect could do so.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:14, Sun 28 Feb 2021.

Sniff out the Witch - InVi 20
R: Personal, D: Concentration, T: Smell
Description: The caster gains the ability to smell the presence of active magic, and track it down.
(Base 5; +1 Concentration, +2 Smell)

Suppressing the Hostile Gift - PeVi 25
R: Voice, D: Concentration, T: Individual
Description: All the Casting Totals of the Target is reduced by 10 for the duration of the spell. The spell needs to penetrate Magic resistance of the target, if any, in order to have any effect.
(Base 10; +2 Voice, +1 Concentration)

Edit: Changed the name of the first spell.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:16, Sun 28 Feb 2021.

Of course, the author didn't really create the guideline. It's just a modified version of the core guideline.


It's cast on the spell:

In reply to Player 14 (msg # 43):

+25 damage is good, though it will require big rocks like a catapult uses. I think the guidelines should continue upward, though there should be some sort of limit.

15 paces away should roughly count as invisible. Not exactly, but close enough.

Touch by the core book. You're still manipulating the spell, so you're in contact with it in some way is probably what they reasoned.

In reply to Salma ex Miscellanea (msg # 45):

Looks good.

In reply to Player 12 (msg # 48):

Sniff... Sounds pretty good. I would note that a normal person couldn't track very well even when they can smell something. But using it as a dog or similar would allow for tracking well.

Suppressing... I would write this as a general spell with the penalty calculated from the spell level.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 53):

Was looking as Probe for Pure Silver when adding that last line, but noted.

As for the suppressing, isn't it already a general spell? It's based on the guideline from core.

In reply to Player 12 (msg # 54):

Yes. I'm just suggesting we write it not as a 10-point penalty, but as a penalty based on the level of the spell. That way the calculation for different levels is already done without having to go back to the guidelines and recalculate.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 55):

Ah, I see.

Suppressing the Hostile Gift - PeVi 25
R: Voice, D: Concentration, T: Individual
Description: All the Casting Totals of the Target is reduced by (spell level-5)/2 for the duration of the spell. The spell needs to penetrate Magic resistance of the target, if any, in order to have any effect.
(Base 10; +2 Voice, +1 Concentration)

So, like that then?

In the style of the core book:

Suppressing the Hostile Gift - PeVi Gen
R: Voice, D: Concentration, T: Individual
Description: All the Casting Totals of the Target is reduced by (spell level-5)/2 for the duration of the spell. The spell needs to penetrate Magic resistance of the target, if any, in order to have any effect.
(Base effect; +2 Voice, +1 Concentration)

Do you think metal instead of stone projectile should make a difference?

In reply to Player 14 (msg # 58):

Not much. Now, if it were sharpened metal (bolt / spear), then it should do more damage than a lump of about the same weight.

I actually have a few thoughts on this.

I think +15 should be the max for a small stone.

Every Mag that is required for the projectile should add five damage. So it's not capped other than by what you throw.

Metal bullets are capped at 20, Gems much harder or sharper than common metals should be capped at 25.

It's an odd spell because it doesn't have size on it and throws much lower than a full individual of stone normally. So maybe call it a full individual of stone caps at +20 and every size mag up gives more damage.

Keeping the size trend for metal means you would get more and more compact projectiles for the same damage.

Naturally it would be a different spell for most substrates or possibly the substrate and worse.

Divine the Life's Lines - InMe 30
R: Personal, D: Momentary, T: Touch
Description: Mimicking the divination through chiromancy, this spell allows the caster to glean any information he desires about his target by moving his fingers over the lines of a palm. This magical sense persists for a single round (a maximum of 6 seconds). Essentially it is an inversion of "Peering into the Mortal Mind", thus circumventing the issue of warping that would occur with repeated casting, in exchange for a shorter range.
(Base 25, Touch +1)

Thoughts?
This message was last edited by the player at 03:29, Mon 01 Mar 2021.

That's why I suggested much bigger:



Yes, it does get a little messy with the size/damage shift. I think it's easier if we just track damage to determine spell level and say that larger projectiles are needed for greater damage.

I don't see why metallic ones wouldn't deal more damage. A ball of metal just hurts more than a rock and the math all works out for the magnitudes.

Magus' Flawless Copy

ReHe(CrMeTe) 40 (Base 5, +1 Touch, +0 Mom, +2 Group, +3 Requisites, +1 Added effect)

The Magus flips through a text and commits every page to flawless memory for an instant and in the process copies the text down onto a blank set of pages using available ink. A finesse roll of EF 12 is required to get a perfect copy of the book, while the quality of the text is lowered by one for every point below the EF that they roll.

---

If that doesn't work, then there isn't much room to go up.

It could be two spells. Level 30 non-ritual to put the book in your head for Diameter (the ritual + mag for diameter. Then the same as above just -2 requisite mags +whatever extra is necessary to make the writing spell work. It shouldn't normally take complexity with Rego just a higher EF.

There's a spell, Memory Palace of the Sage, (TMRE, p. 27) that allows you to memorize a book.

Copying a book can be done through ReAq (the inks) on a page, and has a EF of 15 necessary to copy the highest quality sources (TME, p. 100)

Macrinus beat me to it. I don't see memorizing a book this way without a Ritual.

There is no reason you shouldn't be able to memorize a book temporarily. It's just like any other Creo application. You literally only need it memorized long enough to cast the copy spell.

If the writing is already canon then there shouldn't be an issue with copying texts.

It's not just having it memorized for an instant, though. It's also reading the entire book in an instant to memorize it for that instant. Just refreshing a memory like that for a moment is nearly the same level. Sucking in all that information and making a memory out of it so you can perfectly copy it a moment later should be more difficult than refreshing a memory of a book you actually read.

Now, with a book you've actually read, yes, you could refresh your memory so it's perfect without using a Ritual (HoH: TL CrMe stuff).

Ah, I see normally you have several minutes to page through the book during the ritual casting.

If it is a question of reading it then it is just an issue of an Intellego requisite to enhance your acuity. You are scanning the pages not reading them, otherwise you would presumably get the benefit of reading them.

Like if I wanted to study a book from a memory palace and I had a Moon duration version of the ritual and enduring magic I think I should be allowed to.

It's not my fault that the HoH:TL spell is better than the Memory palace spells.

In reply to Corvus ex Bjornaer (msg # 61):

Interesting and clever variant to avoid the Warping. I'll have to double-check. The overall build seems fine, it's just the Sense Target I like to reread in circumstances like these. It's probably good.

In reply to Brontion ex Guernicus (msg # 69):

Thinking on the Memory palace spell. We could easily say that it can only be cast ceremonially so it has the same advantage of being able to pass through the entire book during the casting. The resulting created mental construct only lasts a diameter after.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 72):

Forming Lot's Sorrow
CrTe 5 R: Touch, D: Mom. T: Ind, Ritual
(Base 4 - in between stone and base metal, +1 Touch)

The caster creates a cubic pace of pure salt.


Summoning the Bounty of the East.

CrHe 10 R: Touch, d: Mom., T: Group, Ritual
(Base 3, +1 touch, +2 Group)


The caster creates a cubic pace of dried and processed black pepper.

In reply to Player 16 (msg # 73):

Rituals must be at least level 20 so might as well add some size magnitudes.

Yes, what Player 13 said.

In reply to Player 13 (msg # 74):

Group target and some size mods that is!
This message was undeleted by the player at 16:45, Mon 01 Mar 2021.

Crap.  There go my cheeky ideas for quick cash.

True. With just size that's one big peppercorn! Group is definitely useful there.

As I understand it both of those fall under the same rules as magically created silver. Otherwise why not just make gold or diamonds rather than silver?

Far as I understand it the "magically created silver" rule is a peripheral code of certain tribunals. It may be wise to have that rule for this new tribunal but might not be particularly easy to avoid some level of created wealth.

Listen. I can hardly throw stones. It was my idea to upend the entire medieval economy for all of Europe as a get rich quick scheme.

But the more round about you are the easier it is to justify. Rego to pull salt from water was mentioned. Magically growing pepper corns rather than summoning. Both are more sustainable and don't take Vis.

Someone had a theory that there is a covenant on Crete that magically grows Saffaron or some such because it is the only supplier of it in Europe.

Pretty sure the supply issues and optional code limitations apply to Rego as well as Creo. Yes, the Rego saves on vis but the legal and economic ramifications are the same. That said, a trading concern related to the Mercere house could spread any of these products around in the same manner they buy magically create silver at a discount and do that. From Tunis there is relatively easy access to anywhere on the Mediterranean... except for those Maltese Pirates headed by a Genoese nobleman so what flag you fly might be important.

Explicitly don't, you can magically exploit natural resources to your heats content. Some Tremere dug out huge gold mine with magical picks and now everything they have is gold because they crashed their local market.

There is a question of supply density, and also a 1220 understanding of economics.

Summoning a giant pile of gold/silver and buying whatever the hell you want is obviously going to mess up the local economy, anything less direct is going to have a much less obvious effect.

Notably, if you're doing something internal to remove labor, but what you supply to the market is something normal (like selling really pure salt, rather than just "having infinite money") I think there isn't a problem.

As has been said, it's all peripheral code anyway, so we can really do what we want, and at worst the next grand tribunal will tell us to stop and we will.

Salt is more valuable and more spendable than gold in this region IIRC. But yes, replacing labor is just good business.

Just a note, isn't simply casting the ritual to make a permanent spring income enough to support a covenant. We are settling in a desert.

According to something said earlier by Callen, IIUC, the permanent spring will only produce water if there is actual water under ground.

Pretty sure it is that only a temporary spell will produce a permanent spring if there is water in the ground. I can look back on it. I was pretty sure the issue with the spell proposed was that it was sun or something.

Correct. The proposed spell was of limited duration.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 89):

Growing Delight in Company
CrMe 25 (base 4, +1 eye, +2 sun, +2 group)

R: Eye, D: Sun, T: Group

The target group feels strong affection towards the caster.  Targets retain free will, and deliberate or obvious provocation will still produce a negative response, but barring that, targets view the caster as a friend.

In reply to Player 16 (msg # 90):

Looks good.

My counter on this seemed to get glossed over.

To build the memory palace all you have to do is see the pages. Even a momentary glimpse of all the pages laid out in a grid should be enough to create a memory palace space. The only thing the Ritual has going for it is that you cast it over a very long time and can flip through all the pages. An equivalent thing could be done if we required the non-ritual memorization spell to be cast ceremonially.

Alternatively. The Memory spell from HOH:TL Flawlessly restores a memory while concentrating. By extension a Sun Duration spell could keep the images of the pages flawless in your head while you spent an afternoon leafing through a book getting a look at each page.

A memory palace memory is not like a normal memory In this case it is a magically created mental construct of a thing you have seen. It's not about reading and comprehending. Since even mundane copying doesn't require a living language score high enough to learn from a book, read it in the mechanical sense.

The problem with the ceremonial method is that you need the Mastery option to manage that, and it seems really bizarre to me that you might be able to successfully create a spell by messing around with it to get it right without the capability of messing around with it.


Yes, that should work. And then use a second craft magic spell to produce the copy.

Well then we have a solution.

Ok, I broke down

Mold the Earth Within Sight
I'm thinking it isn't perfectly optimized.
Seems like Concentration and Voice or even voice and an extra size would do a more reliable job.

Like at voice range you just have to be able to shout at the edge of the region of earth you want to mold.

I'm not sure how we are calling the idea of spam casting but not under pressure/stressful. My group usually says we can do one spell a minute and it still be relaxed (no botch). It usually one comes up when we are doing cross country teleport and 1 minute makes the math easy.

Reducing it to Voice would save me a bunch of XP so I don't need to be able to level 30 ReTe's at CC.

But carving the suez canal +1 size mag at a time seems like it will take forever... Does math... Nope... 5 hours of 100% spam casting so a 40 hour work week at a very leisurely rate.
That can't be right, I can't walk it in that time...
Missed a 1000 in the length. Roughly 2 years of 8 hour spam casting. That is a bit more like it. Probably should make an item that does it at touch, No elaborate, no stone for straight up terra forming dirt. ReTe touch +3 size of dirt is a passable weapon, lol.

Err, could you reference what you're mentioning? It sounds like you're figuring out how to dig the Suez Canal.

Apologies MoH 40

Voice and more size, sure. Concentration, no:

In reply to Brontion ex Guernicus (msg # 97):

Mold the Earth - I'm surprised that passed review. Being able to manipulate stone is a +1 adjustment, not two. Also, a base individual of Terram is 10 cubic paces of dirt, 1 cubic pace of stone. Going with stone, So a level 30 version should be Base 2, +3 Sight, +1 Part, +2 Size, +1 Elaborate, +1 Stone, allowing you to move 100 cubic paces of stone or 1000 cubic paces of dirt.

This is a great spell for assaulting a fortress, as you could undermine the foundations or simply rip out walls.

Actually at A-SG he's right, for both Rego and Rego Craft. They might have rolled in a versatility Mag with it, I guess. But I would take the free mag if the boss is willing to errata the spell.

Wait until I get geometric magic: ring targets at range.

Also, the proposed method for copying books doesn't get past the fundamental finesse issue in creating the final physical product. There are some ways past it though.

Yes, that spell should be ReTe 25, not ReTe 30. Or boost it back up to 30 with an extra +1 magnitude for more size.

That's a great thing.

You're right; it doesn't. You still have to invest in it if you want to do the craft magic well. I've had fun with craft magic before; it can work out nicely and pairs well with a bunch of things.

That's a reasonable way to handle spam casting. I've always just looked for a relaxed pace when I've done it, rather than the fastest possible pace. 1 minute seems like a relaxed enough pace to contemplate things when doing spam casting. I should put that in the wiki notes.

Sure, what book is the actual writing spell in. I was sort of already thinking of getting decent finesse for my grogs so they can use magic slings and vastly improve their crafting efficiency.

Having every craftsman in your covenant be interchangeable and able to teach train and potentially write lessons for each other adds enough efficiency that it should be worth the 3EF hike on everything.

There are two in the Scribal Magic Insets on Covenants starting on page 96 of Covenants, Autodictation (ReTe15) which uses a stylus but could arguably be modified as Animal to use a quill and Thoughts Distinctly Burned (ReAq10) which merely moves the ink.

Transforming Mythic Europe has the whole section on it. Seems the memory spell basically just replaces the need for the spell that lays down the guiding lines.

Seems fine. Even copying a book page by page would still only be like a day for a single scribe Omni-applicable finesse item user.

Using a spell or device to copy pages would be the one case where Practice would also produce a useful result, allowing you to duplicate a book, and gain useful experience in Spell Mastery or Finesse.

Source for that assertion. Is there something that says there are cases where performing for practice is close enough to actually producing work that a season of work can count as practice.

As I understand it. Practice is doing drills. In this case forming complex letters or images and perfecting your serifs and flourishes. Work involves all of that but isn't structured in the form of practice so you get less XP.

Naturally I'm more than happy for my meat grinder of Finesse XP to get just that much faster.

Is there rules for making your grogs read and write? I don't actually have a copy of Grogs handy.

What is the MP value of Touch of Midas? 300? since it is enough money to let a peasant family live comfortably for 300 years and an MP is the annual income of a peasant?

Seems like a lot...

I would agree.

Re: Practice

There is one odd piece around practice "producing" something useful and that's in the wording of the higher practice quality around "forced to practice a trade in a setting with immediate feedback" the example is "someone forced to help on a ship." It implies they are providing some useful benefit to sailing the ship.

But, yes, your reading is definitely my reading when some physical object is actually produced by the activity.

I'm imagining a unique situation. A magus knows the spells The First Furrow Guides the Second and The Copyist's Puissant Quill.  Or a non-magus has devices with unlimited uses. (TME, p. 108)

So now, we get a copy of the Bible, turn to Genesis, and start casting with a supply of inks and parchment. We're going to screw up pages, but we cast hundreds of times a day. We check each page after it forms, and then with a satisfactory page, move on to the next one.  This, to me, serves as pratice casting a spell, or practice with Finesse - purposefully working to get better at an Ability.  At the end of the season, we should have some copied books, as well.

It might be expensive - parchment takes effort to create, and we're going to waste a fair bit of it, but we should get something useful out of the exercise.

In reply to Player 13 (msg # 112):

That's not just making a product, though. That's like a student in an art class making a painting with a teacher critiquing them and having them make adjustments to hone their skill. That's the point of the immediate feedback part. For an example closer to me, practicing dance was a whole lot different than performing dance, even when the dance being practiced and the dance being performed were fundamentally the same.
This message was last edited by the GM at 20:05, Tue 02 Mar 2021.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 114):

The art teacher situation seems more like training (which also explicitly states they can’t produce anything useful) or teaching. Two similarly  low-skilled people sparring with swords to practice seems like the “immediate feedback” they are talking about. In the boat situation I feel like it’s if you make a mistake you might be smacked with the boom or almost go overboard and you’re unlikely to make that mistake again.

You're right. And that actually fits my dance example even better. Practicing with my partner provided immediate feedback, while performing was quite different.

Cool... Little lost on who convinced who.

Can grogs use magic items to copy tractatus as Finesse practice or is this scribe grog doing target practice with a magic sling when until I need a book copied, since ammo is cheaper than ink?

I really don't like the idea of practice producing something useful when training does not. Especially when we have exposure. Otherwise all exposure just gets replaced with practice. E.g. I'll practice Magic Theory by inventing a spell.

Cool, I figured not.

Anyway... Spells!

Tireless Fight
ReCo 25 (Base 10 Ignore the effects of fatigue and wound penalties, Sun +2, Touch +1)
Tireless Flight (HoH:TL 102) but sun rather than moon and no mutantes effects.

Real question there is if I can use it to let me have more vis from Imbued with the Spirit in exchange for Light Wounds.

---

Empty Quarry Restored
CrTe 20 (Base 3, Size +4, Touch +1)
Create a 10,000 cubic pace mass of marble in a simple shape such as a cube or filling an empty quarry.


I was thinking I could just use this rather than touch of Midas. The stone is a valid export and less conspicuous than gold. If I'm already planning on using rego stone manipulation I may as well have good raw materials. It's a 30,000 tons of rock because I had to get a level 3 guideline up to level 20.

I don't actually know the properties of Marble. But if we are calculating the hardness of the covenant walls then things have gone horribly wrong and I could use a few spare chunks to toss around anyway.

Ok, if I do the copy as I mentioned, I can decide whether I want goods or skill.  I can have Exposure if I wanted usable goods at the end of the season, otherwise Practice.  Got it.

I'd wondered about this before vis-a-vis a few things. In the cases of Life-Linked Spontaneous Magic and Life Boost, there are overriding rules just like in this spell. I figure those override this spell. But Imbued with the Spirit of (Form) has no such issue. A Light Wound feels really easy to manage, though, especially compared to a Long-Term Fatigue Level.

Looks good.

I have always interpreted that you can't change mass based on size in a single spell... I would have thought you require a separate spell to affect stone and earth, or at least a '+1 magnitude for variability' if you want to upscale like that.

I really dislike how finesse is the do-everything for magic crafting like that. Of course, I'm also building a rego craft mage, so...

I'm somewhat okay with a rego craft mage using finesse, but a grog with a bunch of finesse specialties and a selection of wands that lets him be a blacksmith, woodcarver, glassblower, or cook is just kind of ... weird to me.

It's based on a canon spell (from a crap book to be fair)


Weird, but also how it works.

I do maintain the C&G cap on the quality of the thing made being determined by the relevant Craft Ability. So a grog with Per +5 and Finesse 12+2 (craft magic) still couldn't make excellent stuff without some Ability and would be unlikely to get beyond Excellent +1 in many areas. This doesn't solve all the issue, but it does keep in place some limits.

As a magus focused on building a library, this spell scares me. Like, it seems designed to steal books.

I wonder if there's going to be trouble and friction between Brontion and Vespera.  We also are probably going to have a lot of spell overlap.

In addition to a collection of spells from Transforming Mythic Europe and Covenants...

Librarian's Guardian
ReAn 20
This spell prevents books and parchment from leaving the targeted structure.  This only works for a library with a distinct building, rather than a set of rooms.  Notes are best kept on wax or clay tablets instead of parchment, if you want to take them from the building.
Base 1, +1 Touch, +3 Structure, +3 moon

Scholar's Glimpse of the Past Text
InAn 20
This spell lets a damaged book (or other animal product) be percieved as if it were undamaged by the caster. For casually damaged materals, this can show where repairs are needed.  For seriously damaged goods, it will reveal its undamaged state - this is not precise enough to (for example) read a book that had been torn to shreds, but would allow you to identify the book and likely even know what the subject was about.
base 5, +1 Touch, +1 Concentration, +1 extra information

Summoning a Storm of Books [I may not have the power for this spell yet]
ReAn40
When This allows you to summon all of the books in a library, represented by a catalogue (arcane connection), within 500 feet.  The books will all appear stacked on a table, or packed onto a shelf you are touching. If just cast without a table, they will appear stacked on the ground near you.
base 4+2, +2 Group, +4 AC

Seek the Absent Tome
InAn 20
This simple spell allows the maga to locate a missing book, tracking it based on a map or diagram.
(Based on Inexorable Search, or the similar spell in Covenants p 100)
I am happy to rebuild this spell, though the one in Covenants just says 'based on Inexorable Search'.

TOTALLY A LIBRARIAN SPELL
Preservation of False Chastity
MuCo 5
This simple spell makes a woman unable to become pregnant for the duration. This allows them to continue their studies and library work for the season even with a wild drunken night with a handsome Redcap.
Base 2, +2 Sun, +1 Touch

The Black Witch's Convenient Steed
ReTe 20
This spell animates an inanimate object, such as a chair or rock, to be used as a steed for transportation.  It can move at the speed of a horse, though awkwardly shaped steeds might require a roll to stay on it for extended durations.  The 'mount' hovers a short bit above the ground, ignoring small changes in terrain, and moves at a steady pace.  The spell cannot affect living things.
Base 3, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +1 Speed, +1 control

Remember that in the arab world, they used paper made of plant matter, so when you get to it, you might wanna throw in Herbam as well.




I like that spell, though I'd again add requisite for Herbam, to be able to read plant-based paper. And likely add Aq/Ig requisites, without increasing magnitude, to be able to affect things burned or wet.




Also, The Demand of the Frustrated Scholar Soothed, which this spell is similar to, uses a Base 20, because you're moving a single book 500 feet. This should be a level 50 spell. On the verge of becoming a Ritual.
Remember that a Group might not let you summon all the books, unless you add enough magnitude for size of the group. And again, you'll probably need to add Herbam here as well.




Why is this level 20, when the spell you reference is 25? What's the difference between them?




I don't think the base is correct:
Level 2: Change someone to give them a minor ability.




I don;t know if the speed of a horse is the correct one. The one spell I recall giving an inanimate object movement is Freeing the Slumbering Tree, and that spell gives it the speed half as fast as a human.

Check Transforming Mythic Europe, it has spells for flying object that use both Herbam and Animal. Page 100-and-something. I think there might be some new guidlines for such spells as well.

I assume it's alright but I made slight alterations to Salma's ReVi Gen Suppress spells by making them concentration rather than Sun duration. With a Sun duration Maintain the Demanding Spell I can suppress a higher level effect, I altered them on my sheet, would you like me to "reprint" them here?

I also had some questions before about my Sidestep variant that I don't feel were answered:

Sidestep of the Magus
ReIm 15
R: Per, D: Sun, T: Ind
As Wizard's Sidestep but includes the sounds of the target as well. This
allows the magus to interact verbally with someone without giving away their
actual location, a finesse roll is required to keep the appearance that they
are talking directly to that person.
(base 2, +2 Sun, +1 changing image, +1 moved image matches changes, +1 for a
second sense)

-Regarding the Finesse roll I did not assign a difficulty but figured maybe it would be an opposed Finesse vs Awareness?
-I think audio and visual displacement would make it harder to detect the magus' actual position, I'm fine with no change on the defense bonus but it seems like it would be more effective in that manner once the moved image is struck.

So I was thinking how we would create shelters, and I came up with this.

Shelter from the Storm ReTe 15. This spell changes stone into a building, three paces long, 3 paces tall, with the roof shaped into an arch for support.  The walls are six inches thick.  There is a single entrance into the structure. This requires a Perception+Finesse EF of 9. Skilled Finesse users can provide decorations and flourishes in the structure.

(Base 3, +1 Touch, +1 Part, +1 Size, +1 Stone)

Is this ok, and is it possible to purchase this as a casting tablet?

Responding to the ones I have time to this morning, that don't require me to look something up.


I will remember that.


I definitely ruined the numbers on this one, I was using the Base numbers in Transforming Mythic Europe, which explicitly says transportation of any inanimate object is done via Rego Terram base 4.



I took out the +1 requisite Creo Imaginem to show the location on a mirror.

The Imaginem requisite should still be there. You're still allowing the map to show the location, and that's the Imaginem component. And the Creo requisite isn't an added magnitude in the original.

That would be required to cast the spell where others could get information. But if I'm just interested in myself gaining it, I don't need any visible effect for an Intellego spell, right?

Beast of Outrageous Size MuAn15
Range: Personal;  Duration: Sun; Target: Individual
Increases the size of the caster, in animal form, by 3 steps, if the original size is +1 or less. So Size -3 becomes size 0, and size +1 becomes +4; but size +2 remains unchanged.
(Base 4, +2 Sun, +1 Increase size)

Thoughts?
This message was last edited by the player at 19:47, Thu 04 Mar 2021.

This message was deleted by the player at 08:58, Fri 05 Mar 2021.

Looks fine. This will warp your books, though.


Hmm... I need to be careful with this one. It's a slippery slope. This goes far beyond Tales of the Ashes, for instance. I'll have to think about tit. And, yes, the note about Group is an important one. If there are enough books that cannot clearly be distinguished into smaller Groups, this spell won't work. You might switch to Room or something, too.


This should be ReTe (see TME p.107) and then include casting requisites for whatever stuff you're bringing. That's better anyway because it will handle non-Animal scrolls, for example. It also makes your base level correct, as ReAn would be base 20, not base 10.


Seems right. It would function like the core spell, not providing the extra stuff of the Covenants spell.


I'm not so sure about this. What sort of minor ability is gained? Could I then say MuCo to give you the minor ability to not be hurt so that you take a wound? Or could I use PeCo to damage a man's inability to get pregnant? PeCo base 5 seems perfect for this, making someone infertile for the Duration.


Looking at TME, this seems correct. You'll need Finesse for issues as addressed there. You may need casting requisites for materials animated, as well. You might want to say it "can maintain a steady pace"; only being still or only moving at a steady pace doesn't work so well for riders.
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:41, Sat 06 Mar 2021.

Ya forget how Perdo works boss? If you Pe something it stays Pe'd

They are gaining the minor ability to control their fertility or perhaps the ability to shoot infertile seamen.

Some Pe destroys permanently, some Pe suppressed things. Fertility is an "essential trait" of most humans so would just suppress, though one could make a spell to wound the genitals and destroy it permanently.

I was very recently reminded of this by Callen.

You are essentially alive and unwounded that doesn't mean that you come back or get healed when a Pe spell ends, it means you are allowed to heal. Do it with the Base 40 guideline I buy it but not at a level 5.

But I could buy that this is "Hamper without injury" but it would still heal as a light wound.

Carving the Instant Tunnel
PeTe 15

This spell carves out a single room or tunnel in an area of stone or earth. The room/tunnel may be of any shape desired, but must not exceed 10 cubic paces.

(Base 3, +1 Stone, +1 Touch, +1 Part, +1 Size)

I'm working on my magus. He has both Giant Blood and Mythic Blood. Would this be okay for his one special magic feat from Mythic Blood?

Alter the Stature of Eld
   MuCo 20 (Invoked with a Gesture)
   R: Per, D: Sun, T: Ind
   Reduces your Size by 1 point or increases it by up to 2 points. Your clothing, armor, and weapons change in size in proportion. Your characteristics and wound range change accordingly.
   (Base 3, +2 Sun, +1 size, +1 to increase equipment as well, +1 variable effect)
This message was last updated by the player at 21:13, Fri 05 Mar 2021.

I had a Flambeau with Giant Blood once.
Adding +1 magnitude to all the Corpus spells he wanted to use on himself was such a bother.

The one upside is that you're immune from offensive Corpus spells that don't have the +1 size magnitude. But it is a bother.

Does being Size +2 require a +1 size magnitude on Imaginem spells such as Aura of Ennobled Presence and Wizard’s Sidestep? By my reading it does, I just want to make sure there isn't another ruling for this game.

They do by RAW. It's quite explicit and seems just as intentional as the Corpus problems.

If you use this power to reduce your size, do you expect to be treated as an Individual target for Corpus and Imaginem magic?

Implied that almost to the point of being explicit. Do you disagree with the interpretation?

I don't see any possible argument for Imaginem, he looks smaller so you are affecting a smaller image.

Corpus you could argue. But I feel like it would be a stretch.

My biggest argument against is that it seems like a waste of a decent free ability when you wouldn't want to do it so often that not having to worry about actually casting would be an issue. It would be better on a familiar bond so you don't get warping from having it going all the time. But we aren't here to optimize each other's characters.

Mostly I'm looking for a way to fit into most buildings. I am including a +1 size magnitude in all his spells that he casts on himself.

My expectation is that when down to Size +1 he would be a valid target for Corpus and Imaginem spells that don't have +1 magnitude for size, but if his Size goes back to +2 or higher, they would no longer work on him.

His Minor Magical Focus is Self-Transformation. Most of his spells have to include the +1 magnitude for size. It is a pain, but I can live with it.

I think that's fair. Just to let you know, Macrinus is another magus with a mmf in Self-Transformation.

I'm pretty sure these should be okay, but I want to make sure.

Leander's Charge
  MuCo 5
  R: Per, D: Sun, T: Ind
  The caster becomes capable of running as fast as a horse. This gives him a bonus to his Attack and Defense Totals equal to his Athletics Ability, up to a maximum of +3. A size modifier is required for this spell since it works on a target of up to Size +4.
  (Base 2, +2 Sun, +1 size)

Wizard's Step
  ReCo 15
  R: Per, D: Mom, T: Ind
  The caster instantly transports himself up to 5 paces in any direction, provided he can see his destination or has an Arcane Connection to it. His Talisman comes with him automatically but casting requisites are required to bring along any other clothing or equipment.
  (Base 10, +1 size)

Leander's Noble Presence
  MuIm 10
  R: Per, D: Sun, T: Ind
  The caster appears more forceful, authoritative, and believable. Numerous subtle changes in appearance bring about this change, including a slight supernatural illumination of the face, a more erect posture, and a louder and smoother voice. The caster gets a +3 on rolls to influence, lead, or convince others.
  (Base 3, +2 Sun, +1 size)

Invisible Sling of Leander
  ReTe 15
  R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Ind
  Hurl a stone (of a size that could be thrown with a mundane sling) at a target within range. Unlike the standard version of Wielding the Invisible Sling (ArM5, page 155), this spell hurls the stone as a projectile. An aiming roll is required to hit the intended target, but if it succeeds, Magic Resistance offers no protection. The stone inflicts +10 damage on impact and has a range increment of 20 paces.
  (Base 10, +1 Touch)

And two spontaneous spells he will likely use:

Leander's Eyes of the Cat
  MuCo 5  (Casting Total (25+aura)/5; no fatigue)
  R: Per, D: Sun, T: Ind
  Req: Animal
  You gain the eyes of a cat, which allow you to see in near darkness (but not in absolute darkness, such as a lightless subterranean cavern).
  (Base 2, +2 Sun, +1 size, requisite free)

Leander's Disguise
  MuCo 15 (Casting Total (25+aura+stress die)/2; fatigue)
  R: Per, D: Sun, T: Part
  Your facial features are transformed to any approximately human configuration you choose.
  (Base 3, +2 Sun, +1 Part, +1 size)

Step is canon and without reqs. Flambeau section.

Wizard's Step is based on Wizard's Leap from Flambeau. I reduced the distance from 50 paces to 5 paces and added +1 magnitude for Leander's size.

As for the reqs, teleport spells vary on them. I included them just in case. If they are not needed, I'm happy with that.

And Wizard's Leap does require casting reqs.

The Alpha Storyguide has stated that a canon spell with a different R/D/T is ok. I don't think any of them are an issue.

I am working under the assumption that book-targetting spells can always target books - though all of them may need Herbam or Animal or Terram casting requisites since some people may use different components to construct the books themselves.


That's a reasonable interpretation, I suppose. I was thinking that the spell's target was the library building, not the books inside (just like how the target of a ward against demons is the protected item, not the demons being warded).  What sort of effect would a warping of books turn into? I imagine it has happened before in other libraries. Either way I'm taking this spell.


I did try to explicitly avoid saying 'you can read a pile of ashes as if it were a book', and I would even say that it has to still be recognizably a book. The goal of it is to allow recovery of damaged books, of course.


Yes.. I definitely designed it with ReTe base in mind, and just *forgot* to change the actual listed Form.  And while its good to know this will work, I have also realized that I'm not anywhere near casting this spell, so finalizing it isn't needed soon.


I've also decided to clarify exactly how it works.
Here:



Should I be worried or proud at how many people have taken an interest in Vespera's Chastity spell?  She's putting Blessing of Venus to good use already, it seems.
My current thought is that preventing pregnancy is either a minor ability (MuCo2) or it could be a 'Hamper but not injure' (PeCo 5) as suggested here. I would prefer the spell to be the former for a few reasons, but will accept your judgement.




I thought it was just more fun and flavorful than the Woolen Steed of Araby spell, though I could just pull that one straight out of the book.  I probably should actually, I'm better at those forms. I have no problems with the spell requiring similar finesse rolls, and am happy to have extra difficulty for the added style and convenience of sitting down on a random bench and having it carry me home. I did get rid of the ability to actually fly, this one only hovers a short distance from the ground, but it should be able to handle stairs and slopes just fine.

Favorable winds
(This is a variant of *Wings of the Soaring Wind*)
Cr(Re)Au 15 (Base 3, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +1 Rego requisite)

This spell creates a strong wind behind the caster, and blows in the direction that the caster wishes. If the caster is transformed into a normal-size bird, it will increase a day's flight range by 200 miles, assuming the spell is cast early in the day. This can also be used by sailors. Note that the direction does not change after the spell is cast.

Macrinus doesn't have it now, but he's likely to develop it.

That is the base-5 guideline. Yes. But a duration would keep it going. You could just do Momentary and repeat it often enough so it doesn't heal. Either way.

Sounds reasonable.


A little harder. Mostly harder for things like owls at night. People are so sight-oriented that there wouldn't be a ton beyond just the visual shift.

Spell looks fine. You need to have the rock to transform, of course.


No, only canonical spells for tablets.

In reply to Jaegar of Merinita (msg # 135):

Looks fine.

In reply to Malleus ex Verditius (msg # 141):

Yes, you can destroy stuff. But "room" and "any shape desired" would be ReTe rather than PeTe. You could Re(Pe)Te to do the carving and destroy the removed material.

In reply to Player 17 (msg # 142):

MuCo base 3 doesn't change Str/Qui canonically. MuAn base 4 does. So I allow MuCo base 4 to as well. So if you raise the base to 4 it looks good.

Exactly. If you're just adjusting R/D/T or size as you mostly need to do, it's auto-approved.

In reply to Vespera of Tremere (msg # 154):

Oh, on size and transporting books. While Group may not be sufficient, there are probably quite a few books in a Group, so Group will handle nearly any library except perhaps Durenmar.


This looks good to me. I could see it being done with MuCo, but I wouldn't consider this a minor ability. For example, turn into a man, but only Part so it's some of your innards. (That gets really strange with modern understanding of anatomy, though.)

In reply to Macrinus ex Tytalus (msg # 155):

Looks good. While you wouldn't want a gale, base 3 would open up the faster wind speeds you're looking for here (about 25 mph).

In response to my question after another's about Rego teleportation, some people didn't want Familiar to go at all, and some even wanted the more restrictive interpretation on top of that. I'm going to go with the less-restrictive, but still canonical, stance to try to ride a happy medium: you do not need requisites for simple clothing and the like. For notably greater amounts of stuff, you'll need requisites as described in TME. Meanwhile, you cannot take Familiars nor other pets with you. That may make no one happy, but it runs the middle ground between the preferences.

I feil to see why Rego would figure into the spell.I agree that the result of the spell being cast edges close to Rego crafting, but in this case there is no control or manipulation of the stone being done. The spell does not carve out single blocks of stone from the rock and then destroy them.

It's basicly Pit of the gaping earth (ArM pg. 155) with a lowered range and an additional magnitude to affect stone.



Is a Finesse check enough to help with the fine control of the shape of the hole created or would it need another magnitude for fine control and versatility.

Two ways to look at it, I think:  (1) Perdo isn't supposed to 'create' things. Just like you can't use perdo terram to sharpen a blade. There is an arguable difference between destroying a stone segment and carving out a stone room. (2) The spell you're doing might also be considered a Rego (Perdo) Terram spell to carve out a stone room and destroy excess stone.

I think if your spell wasn't 'any shape desired' but 'any simple geometric shape' it might fly better?  I can much easier see 'Perdo Terram, big square room. Perdo Terram, long hallway. PeTe PeTe PeTe, three extra rooms.' instead of 'Perdo Terram, small entryway, elaborate stone seating on the walls, hanging wall sconces ready to have torches inserted, central stone table, and a long hallway beyond a stone door on stone hinges.'

While you didn't explicitly state the latter, It also is within technical possibility of the spell you originally described.

EDIT and PS:  If you notice me taking extra-silly and over-the top examples, its not because I think anyone is going to try that.  I have a tendency to find a worst-abuse scenario and scale things back until everyone is happy.
This message was last edited by the player at 06:58, Sun 07 Mar 2021.

Yes, Perdo/Rego gets confusing there. Consider making a sculpture out of a block of stone. You could destroy all the stone you want removed, right? But that's just like sharpening a sword, which is explicitly Rego, not Perdo. The place people get confused is thinking that Perdo is "destruction." Perdo is not "destruction." Rather, Perdo is more "worsening":

That can be flat-out destruction of material, but not as a round-about improvement. Your spell's description would allow you to carve out rooms with intricate etching on the walls and the like. That is making a good room as opposed to making a bad rock. Perdo can worsen the rock, destroying it to leave a hole. But it cannot make a better room than the sort of room the gap in the stone is.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 168):

Well, I was never thinking about more than leaving large box-ish holes in the rock.
But Re(Pe)Te it is then. Should I add an extra magnitude or is it good with just the requisite.

In reply to Player 9 (msg # 169):

I think the Perdo requisite should be free. Match it up to Mold the Earth Within Sight (corrected for +1 stone), and then throw the Perdo requisite on for free to leave no debris.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 170):

So basically +1 magnitude for elaborate effects and a free Perdo requisite.
Mold the Earth Within Sight (Base 2, +3 Sight, +1 Part, +1 Size, +1 Elaborate, +1 stone)


Carving the Sudden Room
Re(Pe)Te 15

Using this spell, the magus can shape create a hole in earth or stone in any form that he likes, although truly complicated forms may require a Finesse check. This spell only works on
dirt, rock, and stone; other more-exoticforms of Terram (metal, diamonds, gemstones, etc.) are unaffected.

(Base 2, +1 Stone, +1 Touch, +1 Part, +1 Size +1 elaborate effect)

So basic shapes like boxes, spheres, and the like should be fairly easy, but if you want to add details like benches, bookshelves and the like Finesse will come into play.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:06, Sun 07 Mar 2021.

Looks good.

Probably not that important but we named the version of the Aegis of the Hearth that adds a size magnitude:

Expanding on Notatus' Feat

I'd like to ask opinions on this. A Light Wound does take a week to recover from without a Ritual. But this allows for more vis from the Virtue, potentially a lot more. Thoughts?

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 174):

Wounds possibly getting worse is a serious risk with the combination of that spell and virtue and should be strictly used.

Side note regarding Imbued with the Spirit of (form), I never take it because it upsets beings of that form and I usually want to take it in a form I would want my familiar to be linked to. Anyway, another problem with that virtue that shouldn’t be overlooked.

It is just Endurance of the Berserkers with Touch and Sun instead of Personal and Concentration. I don't have a problem with it including the extra vis from the Virtue.

We would need to enforce that a character under the influence of this spell does risk worsening wounds, but they may not notice.

This spell is based on Shape of the Woodland Prowler but includes a feature that may be problematic.

Cloak of the Hunter
  MuCo 30
  R: Per, D: Sun, T: Ind
  Req: Animal
  You hang a wolf-hide cloak on your back and transform into a massive wolf. Your size in wolf form varies between 0 to +3 chosen when you cast the spell. Your Strength, Quickness, and wound range change according to your size. You can resume human form at will, but doing so ends the spell.
  (Base 10, +2 Sun, +1 size, +1 variable size)

In reply to Leander ex Flambeau (msg # 177):

Looks fine.

No it's not. Berserker turns off when you run out of fatigue. Mine of based on the similar spell in HoH:TL.

My assumption for that difference is that Berserker is Concentration, not Moon. Otherwise, your spell and the other should have at least a +1 magnitude for an additional effect.

It's a difference in how they handle the failure state. It's not spelled out in the guidline so the examples have to define it.

By example. The spell is allowed to either end early or have you take wounds. There is no reason you could have Tireless Flight at Concentration.

But that's not the discussion at all.

They are two similar but not identical uses of the same base. There are some other small differences outside of R/D/T and the Mutantum possibilities, too.

Not a spell I have but one idea for the water situation at our covenant.

Create the Subterranean Aquaduct Cr(Pe)Te 20
R: Touch, D: Mom T: Ind
A pipe of stone comes out of the ground where you touch and leads all the way to the bottom of a body of water that you have an Arcane Connection to. The river, pond, or lake must be within X miles of where you touch (Not sure how many miles of pipe 3 Size Mags could give)
(Base 3: Create Stone, +1 Touch, +1 Complexity, +3 Size Mod)

As the pipe goes through stone or earth the Perdo req seems necessary but not something that adds a magnitude as it seems necessary for the effect rather than something extra.

I think you should add +1 Perdo magnitude, in that you are creating a conduit for the stone pipe, rather than having the pipe above ground.

So we can create 1,000 cubic paces of stone with this.  Assuming the pipe is a foot in radius with two inch thick walls. Each inch of length uses 151 cubic inches of stone. A cubic pace is 46,656 cubic inches. Thus, one cubic pace can make 25' of stone pipe. 25,000 feet is less than 5 miles. I don't think this is a big enough spell.

I would unfortunately believe the pipe would need a finesse roll to hit the Arcane Connection, otherwise you need to add Intellego and Target Arcane Connection.  Perdo to make the pipe open also definitely needed, but I don't see a need to add +1 magnitude.

I think the +1 Perdo is probably necessary. I could see laying pipe in the ground without it, but you very specifically need to destroy the ground in the cavity as well.

I think Vespera is right about laying the pipe. Usually if you do this sort of area attack that doesn't have a Range to its target you need to hit the target with a Finesse roll. So that would be R: AC or Finesse.

Very well, needs a Perdo Req. I thought I was being careful with a non+1 req considering there is no perdo req for Conjure the Mystic Tower.


A foot radius is much too large. I don't want to drain the river. I was thinking 2 inches inside the pipe, maybe .75-1 inch thick walls of the pipe. That said 5 miles is way more than enough as the river is a mile away though more than a mile would be necessary due to change in elevation.



If I up range to AC I don't see a need for Intellego and, as a ritual, I would like to get rid of a need for finesse. Placement in the river is not particularly important, long as it's below water level.

So redesign:
Create the Subterranean Aquaduct Cr(Pe)Te 40
R: Arc, D: Mom T: Ind
A pipe of stone is created between the part of the river which you have the AC to the caster's finger. The river, pond, or lake must be within X miles of where your finger is placed. (Not sure how many miles of pipe 3 Size Mags could give)
(Base 3: Create Stone, +4 Arcane Connection, +1 Perdo, +1 Complexity, +3 Size Mod)

With the change in dimensions and needing only over a mile not 5 miles I wonder if +2 size mags might do it but didn't check (would have to look up the functions necessary and Macrinus has those in hand) and I assume it would be close if it could.

At 40, or even 35 my idea to create a magical ReAq "pump"/valve that fits on the submerged end of this pipe is pretty unfeasible for a covenant without any terram-focused magi and even with a terram-focused magus it's a long way off. That sucks.

Any thoughts on how I could get the level down? Do it in pieces? a pipe down to the river, that could just be touch as long as I can see the river at the bottom of the cliff, right? I would definitely want the pipe encased in earth until it comes out the other end. I could maybe forgo the AC and just have the spell create a straight length of pipe and determine the angle using math, any Hermetic Geometrists in the bunch?

Water will not flow 5 miles down a 2 inch pipe. I can do the math. But I really don't want to. There is a reason water mains are really big.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 188):

a) not gonna be 5 miles. 1-ish mile though uphill, I was assuming ReAq "pump/valve" at one end would push the water through due to displacement.
b) I just need a trickle if set up with cisterns at our end.

How large a pipe do you think it needs to be? Ballpark, this is not a water main this is a slow but constant flow to fill up cisterns and any runnoff after those were full would go to whatever agriculture we have but this would likely be in addition to other sources.

So... I don't have the friction numbers for stone pipes. Because I'm a chemical engineer in 2021 not a roman civics engineer but lets suppose your stone is marble or something that can be as smooth as PVC...

You want to have enough for your people and agriculture. I have no idea how much water plants need in the desert. But people should be getting a gallon-ish per day. with decent covenant growth eventually call that 50 people? doubled for agriculture? 100 gallon per day is nice and round.

Actually there are too many unsolved variables if you have a pump.

But you could move 100 gallons a day through a 2 inch pipe 1 mile uphill by 100m with the equivalent pressure of a 100m water column. 0.015m3/hour is a pretty low flow rate. 4ml per second. That is less than what I let my cat play with in the sink.

Well, we aren’t in the desert, mountainous scrublands that get some rain at least part of the year but, like I said I don’t think this would be the only source, just beats sending the grogs a mile with buckets. In Roman times a reasonably sized town was supported using mostly rain catching cisterns. Of course removal of the forest and it drying out some was likely a significant reason this site is not much inhabited in 1220, probably some shepherds or goatherds but not much else. Either way it seems like a much more expensive solution (in both vis and time) than a lvl 20 CrAq “create spring” ritual. Might be good if we need to expand beyond what a magically created spring can provide.

Might up it to a 3 in pipe but a foot seems much larger than necessary for a constant but low-ish flow and utilizing cisterns for use.

You could also just Rego channel all of the rain water over a very large area into a cistern.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 192):

Good for us, bad for our agriculture and the natural areas around us. Also may piss off our neighbors who’re grazing sheep and whatnot. Might also threaten a vis source of ours but that would be a separate, specific thing.

In reply to Salma ex Miscellanea (msg # 189):

I think you'd be much better off, especially if you don't have a Te specialist, to take two stones from the river, and make one of them an AC to the other. Lave the one with the Ac in a river/stream/lake/oasis, and enchant the other with ReAq to bring water from the AC to it's location.

As long as nobody disturbs the AC stone, or the water source dries out, you're good to go.

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 194):

Ah yes, ye olde inconspicuous water floating uphill.

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 194):

On second thought that could be quite an elegant solution. Take any stone, cut it in half, fix both as ACs to each other, and either enchant the one to teleport a certain amount of water near it when activated to the other using the "activate an enchanted item at AC range" spell or just cast a "teleport water spell" to bring it to you when necessary. Finesse would not be a huge issue, merely waste some of the water. Hrm... good idea. Not that we have an Aquam-focused mage either but...

TME (pg. 107) gives a ReAq guideline Base 4 to teleport water 5 paces, add 3 magnitudes for a League. Add another for part and you have the base effect effect for the item.

While Arnaldo doesn't have any of these spells, yet. I have decided to jump ahead and figure out some spells that I'd like for him to eventually research, and once researched, he'll try and make his lab texts usable, and bound into a folio of animal magic that he would be willing to sell.

Carry the Beast
MuAn(Te)30
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
The spell transforms an animal into a miniature clay sculpture about 2 sizes smaller than the target animal.
(Base 15, +2 Sun, +1 Terram)

Remove the Feathers’ Cloak
PeAn15
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
When cast, a single bird within range loses of its feathers. If the bird was flying at the time, it will no longer be able to do so without its feathers and drop immediately - probably to its death. When cast on birds like a dead chicken, this spell is even useful as kitchen magic.
(Base 5, +2 Voice)

Sight of the Lowly Beast
InCo(An)15
R: Arc, D: Con, T: Ind
Let’s you use the sense of an animal you have an Arcane Connection to. Thus, though the animal may not be able to understand speech, the caster, hearing the sounds, could.
(Base 1, +4 Arcane Connection, +1 Concentrate)

Commune with Animals
InAn20
R: Per, D: Sun, T: Ind
Allows you to converse with an animal as If you share a common language. Animals are still limited by their cunning in what information they can impart.
(Base 10, +2 Sun)

Call the Simple Beast
CrAn15
R: Touch, D: Con, T: Ind
You create a single bird/fish/amphibian/reptile of up to size +1. The creature isn’t under your control, and will act as a normal animal as long as you concentrate.
(Base 10, +1 Touch)

Call the Land Beast
CrAn20
R: Touch, D: Con, T: Ind
You create a single mammal of up to size +1. The creature isn’t under your control, and will act as a normal animal as long as you concentrate.
(Base 15, +1 Touch)

Rhino’s Hide
MuAn15
R: Per, D: Sun, T: Ind
Your flesh becomes resistant to physical damage. You get +3 to your Soak. Your flesh is tough and insensitive; any rolls that involve a sensitive touch (such as for picking a lock) are at –1.
(Base 5, +2 Sun)

Hump of a Camel
MuAn(Ig)30
R: Personal, D: Sun, T: Ind
Grants the animal a +3 to resist water and food deprivation, and to survive the heat.
(Base 15, Sun +2, Ignem +1)

Tail of a Monkey
MuAn40
R: Personal, D: Sun, T: Ind
The animal grows a prehensile tail, that can hold and manipulate objects, as well as improve its balance, if it’s got less than 4 legs.
(Base 25, Touch +1, Sun +2)
This message was last edited by the player at 22:30, Tue 09 Mar 2021.

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 198):

I found and have this spell. Works like your Rhino's Hide, but Animal transformations are easier than people.

On page 61 of BCoC. Gift of Man’s Fortitude (MuAn15): As Gift of the Bear’s Fortitude, but for animals.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:21, Tue 09 Mar 2021.

Took a while to get through all these:


That requisite is part of the guideline, so no +1 for Terram just like we see no +1 for Animal in the MuCo(An) shapeshifting stuff. You're missing the +1 Touch there, though.


Having seen a squirrel fall several stories onto concrete and run off, I'm aware smaller animals fall better than bigger ones. Birds, with their hollow bones are even lighter compared to their size, and that's even neglecting the feathers. So I'd get rid of "probably to its death." It is likely the animal will be injured.

The base 5 guideline is supposed to "roughly [halve] the effectiveness of the targeted thing," while you're entirely removing the effectiveness. So this goes beyond what the base 5 guideline can manage.


This would be InAn, not InCo, if you're picking up the senses of an animal. If it were from a human or other intelligent thing, it would be InMe.

For InMe the core book says

However, A&A went through more carefully and said

And the core book says

So it should be InAn base 5 for one sense or InAn base 15 for all senses.


How about a Range greater than Personal to affect the animal? This isn't an InMe effect that give the caster a new mental effect. You might be able to recast this as Personal with a sense Target, though that wouldn't let you deliver messages, just receive.


That's a lot of variety for one spell. Consider spells like Preternatural Growth and Shrinking, which requires a +1 just for the flexibility between growth and shrinking. This spell can make a bird or a fish or an amphibian or a reptile, each of which includes a vast number of possibilities and sizes. You'll need a lot of extra magnitudes to get this kind of flexibility out of such a spell.


This is better as there is not nearly so much flexibility. But it's still way too flexible without extra magnitudes.


This is fine.


I don't think Ignem is really needed. It's not an Ignem ward, just giving some camel benefits. I think MuAn base 15 is sufficient.


At very least, I wouldn't call it that. With information today, we tend to forget. Fully prehensile tails are almost entirely exclusive to the Americas. There are a few, though. The tree pangolin and binturong live far from Europe. The only one I'm aware of is the harvest mouse. Did people in the middle ages have any idea the harvest mouse had a prehensile tail? I'm not saying such a spell won't work, mostly that the name is odd.

Ok, so it's:
Carry the Beast
MuAn(Te)30
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
The spell transforms an animal into a miniature clay sculpture about 2 sizes smaller than the target animal.
(Base 15, +1 Touch, +2 Sun)



Would that be the level 15 guideline? "Change an animal in a major unnatural way (for example, give a horse claws, fangs, and scaly armored skin)."

That would be:
Remove the Feathers’ Cloak
PeAn25
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
When cast, a single bird within range loses of its feathers. If the bird was flying at the time, it will no longer be able to do so without its feathers and drop immediately - probably to its death. When cast on birds like a dead chicken, this spell is even useful as kitchen magic.
(Base 15, +2 Voice)



So that means, it should be:
Sight of the Lowly Beast
InAn30
R: Arc, D: Con, T: Ind
Let’s you use one sense of an animal you have an Arcane Connection to. Thus, though the animal may not be able to understand speech, the caster, hearing the sounds, could.
(Base 5, +4 Arcane Connection, +1 Concentrate)

And possible:
Commandeer the Senses of the Beast
InAn40
R: Arc, D: Con, T: Ind
Let’s you use all 5 senses of an animal you have an Arcane Connection to. Thus, though the animal may not be able to understand speech, the caster, hearing the sounds, could.
(Base 15, +4 Arcane Connection, +1 Concentrate)



The idea was that the spell allows me, in animal form, to communicate with other animals. Therefore, it wouldn't need a range other than Personal, unless I wanted to be able to cast it on another. (Though then it would probably become InMe to be cast on humans.)
I can see it possibly requiring an extra magnitude for complexity, since it allows to commune with any animal.



Could this be just a general kind of spell, where each version creates a specific animal of those types?



Could this be just a general kind of spell, where each version creates a specific animal of those types?



Ok, so this becomes:
Hump of a Camel
MuAn25
R: Personal, D: Sun, T: Ind
Grants the animal a +3 to resist water and food deprivation, and to survive the heat.
(Base 15, Sun +2)



Yeah, I'll have to rethink this one.

Thanks for being patient.

Looks good now.


I'm a little confused. You're quoting a MuAn guideline for a PeAn spell? It's probably most similar to "Cripple a beast’s limb, so that it is unusable but could heal." The reason I say similar is that it completely stops their ability to fly, which is pretty similar to crippling a limb. Yes, that is base 15, so the spell as written works. I just don't understand the reference beforehand.


I would adjust the first one to being a specific sense, and if you add +1 you can choose any sense, not that the latter would matter for spontaneous magic. Otherwise, yes.


Yes, I understood what the idea was, but that doesn't match how the guideline works at all. This is easier to see if you look at InMe since there are example spells. Why isn't Thoughts Within Babble T: Individual? After all, it's basically the same as what you're doing. Because it needs to detect the thing. That's either by extending Range or by using Personal and a Sense Target. So the typical version of "speak with any one human" would be R: Eye, D: Concentration, T: Individual, or similar. Then you can speak with the human at Eye Range. Same thing with this InAn guideline.


Yes, these work for specific animal types fine. It's also a different version for a male v. a female according to canon.


Looks good.


Mostly it's a name change. I don't think there is anything wrong with a prehensile tail, though I don't know how many in Medieval Europe are likely to have even considered it.

Snakes are known and so are tentacled creatures. I don't see why it would be a huge leap to say it is a tail that can move with all the grace of a serpent (AKA prehensile). Especially among Magi where we encounter intelligent snakes on occasion and can see that they can do a great deal of manipulation with their bodies.

That's why I say it's fine. I wouldn't use that name, though.

Sure, I only mention in case he was having trouble with a name. "Graceful Serpent's Tail" is a more elegant name than "Tail of a Mouse We May Have Never Observed Using Its Tail as a Hand".

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 205):

LOL. That was great! Yes, that is a much better name!

But the latter is so much more awesome as a spell name... :-)

Is there a spell out there that lets you full on possess someone? Like would it just be complexity to use your Great weapon skill through a victim target

There isn't a spell I know of yet, but Core book page 152 has Rego Mentem Exchange of Two Minds. A modification on that ritual spell might function for a short while.

This isn't a specific spell, but a spontaneous spell Jaegar intends to use regularly:

Unraveling the Fabric of ______ PeVi5
Range: Touch
Duration: Momentary
Target: Individual
This spell will cancel the effects of any one Hermetic Spell of _______ whose level is less than or equal to 20 + Stress Die (No botch).

At touch range, or personal range, this spontaneous spell is useful for becoming visible if invisible, removing effects that are Sun duration or longer, when they are no longer useful, etc.

In reply to Jaegar of Merinita (msg # 210):

I've frequently used that and called it

Unraveling the Threads of (Form)

I wanted to distinguish between the original and the Touch-range version while keeping the name about the same.

Would touch range PeVi only affect spells you cast or cast on you? It was my understanding that unless the spell was somehow connected to you such as one you are concentrating on that you needed voice range to target spells.

Correct. Which is exactly the use case he described.

A potential spell. Thoughts? (Yes, I stole it)

Blind the Ogling Fool
Rego Corpus 5, R: Voice, D: Diameter, T: Individual
Causes the target’s eyes to close for the duration of the spell.
(Base 2 to make a target lose control of a body part, +2 Voice, +1 Diameter)
This message was last edited by the player at 16:59, Sat 13 Mar 2021.

In reply to Jaegar of Merinita (msg # 214):

Looks good.

Disguise of the Transformed Animal
Muto Imaginum 10
R: Touch, D: Sun, Target: Individual
Changes a 4 footed animal to look and feel like a different 4 footed animal. It effects up to size +3 Animals.
(base 2, +1 touch, +2 sun, +1 size)

In reply to Player 8 (msg # 216):

Much as I think it's an inventive spell, how and where do you envision utilizing this?

Who, cares?

The spell is valid. Even if you are just going to regularly spont cast it to make your camel a horse.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 218):


It's common in most areas dominated by Islam at this point in time, that non-believers, even other people of the book, may not carry weapons, or ride a horse.  I can actually see immediate utility for this if a European is travelling in any local community.

Although I must admit that if you are using it for disguise sound might be more useful than feel. Not many people will feel my camel or if they do they might excuse one furry beast for another. Hearing a camel whinny on the other hand might draw attention. But then again I'm North American I legit can't tell you what sound a camel makes.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 220):

Evidently, they make this sound:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GpMGiDmbdM

So understandably people would be disconcerted by a horse doing that bullshit. Along with the clip clop of would could only be assumed to be camel-shoes.... I switched directions at some point. But the arguments are individually valid where they apply.

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 217):

He is a shapechanger. If he wants to look like a different dog, horse, lion, or just different, this works. And, if you steal a camel, and make it look like goat, or vice versa, much fewer problems.

And the sound idea is good.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:31, Thu 18 Mar 2021.

In reply to Player 8 (msg # 216):

Looks good.

This spell lowers the temperature of a room, limited to near freezing. In a room with open windows or airflow, it will quickly warm back up. It's meant to be used as a spontaneous cast, so the magus can set the temperature as desired.

PeIg 5 (Base 2, +1 Touch, +2 Room)

In reply to Macrinus ex Tytalus (msg # 225):

Would that not be closer to the base 3 guideline of reducing a fire? Really, it's more like "chill an object," which is base 4, but base 4 is stronger than you're suggesting, which is why I was thinking base 3.

That's not unreasonable at all. Base 3 it is, making this a PeIg 10 spell (Base 3, +1 Touch, +2 Room).

In reply to Macrinus ex Tytalus (msg # 227):

You didn't specify Duration. Is it Momentary?

From what he described, the spell makes the room cold, but it naturally warms up. So it shouldn't need a duration.

Given the Target of Boundry:

1. Could Aegis of the Hearth be cast on a wagon and have the effect continue while the wagon moves?
   
2. If so, could the effect include the beasts of burdon pulling the wagon?
   
3. Could it be cast on multiple wagons?

I'm pretty sure the answer to 1 is yes. Regarding 2 and 3, I'm not certain. I've never had a traveling covenant before in any of the games I ran or played in.

I remember a similar conversation online on the forums; It may be worth looking up what Through the Aegis says about the Northern Seas covenant; I know they don't have an Aegis but I don't know if that's because its impossible or because of a choice.

There is also a covenant at sea in TSE. I'll see what I can find in each.

Looking at the Northern Seas covenant, it mentions that they don't have an Aegis, but it doesn't say why. Unless I missed it.

I haven't found anything yet. Boundary can use a man-made boundary, and things that qualify for Structure could well qualify. I have some other spots to check on the mobility, though I know there are canonically mobile Circles.

I think point 3 is clearly out as there is no one boundary, and even if there were, it wouldn't be well-defined due to the wagons moving about independently.

Point 2 is less clear, as you might consider being within the harnesses to be within the boundary, if it is a valid boundary.

As for two things above:

I found this canonical quote about teleporting with animals:

I think that says you can move living creatures if they're small enough to be carried easily enough.

No one objected to the ReCo effect alongside Imbued with the Spirit of (Form), so it's a go. But we will be strict about resulting Wound Penalties and recovery from those wounds. Be warned.

Other spells may work with a moving circle. However, the text of Aegis makes clear that it is a special kind of spell, not subject to change in it's parameters. And I have always played boundary as be distinctly tied to the ground.
If a spell could be reduced to structure (because it was more flexible) then applied to a moving structure, then it could protect a wagon. But I never thought of Aegis as that flexible.
Just my opinion. As long as whatever changes we apply to the Aegis are usable by everybody, I would be fine with it. It's just that I never thought of Aegis as a very flexible spell.

I just re-read the last paragraph of the explanation of the spell, on page 161 of ArM5. It would require a breakthrough to change the parameters of the spell. So, could it be changed to apply to a moving structure? Yes, with a breakthrough.
This message was last edited by the player at 02:16, Tue 23 Mar 2021.

Yes, I don't think anyone would argue against them having an aegis if they did a breakthrough to change the target.

But I don't think you should be able to do a moving boundary.

I'm fine with that. I honestly didn't think it would be worth it to cast Aegis on a wagon anyway. I was just wondering.

I went back to reread the spell. I don't feel it fits well with mobility. If a new version at T: Structure were invented, sure.

Meanwhile, I was imagining how AotH could end up supplanting PM if it Boundary can be an overly mobile thing. For example, someone uses a cloak for a boundary, so it protects anything within the cloak. There was a specific effort to divorce PM from ReVi, and this could totally undo it. So Boundary should really be a piece of ground or such.

That still leaves an issue of: What if I ReTe a covenant and all the land around it to scoop it up and fly elsewhere? I don't think that's too likely, though, so we'll figure that out if it ever happens when it happens.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 239):

Would you allow an Aegis Boundary to be defined by a Regio boundary?

It would have to be exceptionally small.

In reply to Player 15 (msg # 240):

I thought about this a little bit. I think there could be problems if AotH is cast from outside the Regio. But I don't see a problem with it being cast inside the Regio using the Regio border as the Boundary. The problem with casting from outside is that they don't really occupy the same space. It would be kind of like me saying I just ran around Australia last night because I ran in a circle and that circle goes around a cone passing through the earth and encompassing Australia, except that's at least physically mappable in three dimensions.

As for sizes, if covenants (or the inside of the Regio) are too big, this is an important note from my list of interpretations:

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 243):

Yeah, I believe eventually the Aerie will need to research an Aegis with bigger size.

Just invent, no original research. If that's what you meant, pretty sure he let someone start with a size increased one.

Right. You can invent it without needing to do any original research. But if you want a Structure version or an Until version or similar (Aura would probably be fantastic for those who can do it), then you'll need to do original research.

Screw that I'm building a wall from the Black sea to the Baltic sea and putting an aegis around Europe. If you are curious what I'm doing walking the coast for 5 years...

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 244):

Yes, Apicem Domus (Hedge Relations cov) has a lab text for a +1 sized Aegis. Definitely suitable for our purposes. Might be smaller than you are hoping to make.

In reply to Salma ex Miscellanea (msg # 248):

Our covenant has a Vast Aura, so we'll need a few magnitudes to cover that entire area. And it would be great to raise multiple magical animals. Heck, with that size, we might eventually go looking for magical elephants... Think about having one such cute thing as a Familiar...

You do have to actually have a boundary set up. "Edge of the Aura" isn't necessarily a boundary if it stops in the middle of the desert.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 250):

Setting up a boundary can be done. getting one's Lab totals to be high enough to be able to research the spell with the size modifiers is gonna take longer.

Invent.

The real problem is you have to trade off effect for size. If you end up Vim rich then you might consider having a weak one for the whole joint and a strong one that you keep on hand in case you actually piss someone off.

Like we could pretty easily pop your weak giant aegis like a soap bubble or just cast through it if a wiz war broke out. Or a big beasty takes exception to you stealing its young.

Not actually sure why you want it over huge empty fields or whatever tbh.

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 249):

The city of Garama itself is 10 hectares/25 acres. It is surrounded by a moat, that children swam in as late as 1937. So there is definitely enough water to water our flocks. And that is almost the exact size of boundary that would be covered by the +1 size that the Hedge Relations Covenant has.

The one we have could cover our tower and surrounding areas/ruins where we could build pens.
This message was last updated by the player at 19:49, Thu 25 Mar 2021.

In reply to Jaegar of Merinita (msg # 253):

1 hectare is almost 1/3 larger in area than a circle of 100 yards diameter.

Specifically

1 hectare is   10000m^2
10 hectare is 100000m^2
50*50*3*10=    75000m^2

I usually allow boundary to be a little more wiggly in size but he's not wrong. I'm also not acknowledging and difference between a pace/meter/yard and I never will.

In reply to Player 13 (msg # 254):

The increased size spell is 10x size, correct? I am probably off by some. 7.8 Hectares, and the walls are a weird shape, so would have to not include every street. 50 x 50 = 2,500 x3.14 = 7850 x 10 = 78,500. Math is definitely not my strong suit. If my calculations are off, please let me know.
This message was lightly edited by the player at 20:41, Thu 25 Mar 2021.

My idea, for the future, is this:

We have a covenant in a Vast Aura (about 5 miles diameter). As the menagerie expands, we'll want to house the animals within the Aura, especially for the Magical Animals, so that they can live well.

The main reason i want to extend the Aegis to where the animals live is because that is gonna be one of our main sources of income, research, and possible Vis source. Plus, it can become a site where other covenants send their Magi to look for a suitable Familiar.

To better protect this endeavor, I want to have the Aegis extend over it. Yes, I'm aware it might potentially make the Aegis' Penetration lower, but it will still be better than nothing.

If a normal Aegis is about 100 yards in diameter, which is about 150 square yards in area, and our Aura is about 5 mile diameter, that makes it around 13,800 square yards area. And if every Size magnitude is 10 times the area, with +2 Size magnitudes, we can have an area around 15,000 square yards, which should be enough to cover the entire Aura, so a minimum of Revi30, to offer the same protection as a Revi20 Aegis.

If need be, My magus will invest in that.

Logistics there are on you but the mechanics are sound. So in terms of this thread you are probably set.

Doing the technical math:

Boundary handles 7854 square paces (yards), which is about 0.6 hectares.

If the boundary to be used at Garama isn't that much bigger that 6 hectares, that should be fine. It may well not be the full 10 hectares, so we're probably within the wiggle room.

5 miles across is 60,821,234 square paces (yards). That's about 7744 times the base Boundary. Each +1 gets you x10 area. So you need +4. You can estimate this quickly with diameter as each x3 diameter roughly costs +1; you'll get to the same +4.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 259):

You're correct, I forgot to square the Radius in my earlier calculations, sorry.