I think we all know what this is for.

I do have a bunch of things posted in the game wiki already, including stuff on making magi and companions.

Discussion goes here to keep Setup clean? Or are we talking there too?

I'm probably going to get pretty confused, pretty quickly, with everyone's displaying name being "Player #". Could we be assigned appropriate aliases?

We should probably have something more distinct before we get deep into discussion. Even if we haven't gotten character names yet. A-SG can probably reassign it to anything you want at your request.

I posted 2 magi and 3 companion concepts. In addition to possibly having a SG alias.

Yes, I'm trying to keep the setup thread cleaner overall, while any spillover here is perfectly fine.

Yes, I can certainly change names. I just did that as a placeholder. I would eventually make primary names your SG or magus character name, but I can also switch placeholder names as well. I'm totally flexible on that.

I think this is what I meant by Mythic Crafter. The one where you can make magic items with crafting.

If we end up in Africa

I'm thinking I want my character to be a spill over from Levant(?) being a native Egyptian. Either incarnation id probably going to be inspired by the Cult of Thoth pushing the magical order manifest destiny angle (from two different directions).

Yes, Touched by (Realm) allows you to make magic by crafting (and without vis). There are also a couple more restricted versions of that, where it's a Minor Virtue and you can only do it for very specific craft and a single Form. Mythic Farrier in Grogs explains this and shows how to extend it.

How deep into Covenants are we getting? I'd rather leave out special book materials if there is any negotiating room.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 7):

Ah, I see, so you'd like a Crafter Touched by (Realm). Well if that is the case I might go for something else. The companion concepts I listed are all of course still subject to change. Instead, one thing I could go for a craftsmen's best friend; a (Mythic) Alchemist! Provide good quality materials to work with, maybe even some Alchemical Steel and the likes!

Just as a general question, I know some SGs have a problem with the Beast Masters Ex Misc tradition. Due to them having to have the Feral Upbringing flaw, which precludes them from starting with a language skill, which some Sgs think should preclude them from studying Latin, which in turn makes them unsuitable for mages, since you need Latin, or some such langauge to study magic.

Pretty sure Feral Upbringing doesn't prevent you from starting with a Language Score by the end of character creation. It does mean you don't get a language score of 5 for free (instead you get bonus 75xp for your childhood). After childhood you can purchase any living language with your standard XP. Hermetic Apprenticeship would give you access to Latin as normal.

I think you'll find it's OK if two of you have Touched by (Realm) if you both like. You might be in different covenants, you might have different Arts, you might have different Crafts, etc. So while I like preserving player niches, I don't think that is a problem.

As for Feral Upbringing, the Flaw does say you don't start with languages; you don't get to just buy them after reaching 5 years old. I do think that stops you from starting with Latin. However, I don't think that stops you from learning magic. All beast masters have Animal Ken, so they can communicate with each other. It does mean you initially lack Latin to use for casting your spells and so will initially be at penalties when casting spells unless you have Quiet Magic x2 or something like that (though that's handy for animal forms). Personally, I like using Skinchanger or Shapeshifter with a beast master to be able to turn into the type of animal within their specialty.

Almost missed this one:

The resonances? I tend to like them for some flavor. And if there is a hunter or two as I've seen suggested, that can provide some added value for the skins, bones, etc. of animals they've hunted. I've generally found resonances don't come into play much. Most writers just don't go through the effort since it only works for a single copy; their original need not use the materials at all to make copies of it to sell.

So setting up a new tribunal I think one needs a minimum of 4 covenants and a minimum of 12 magi.

Is the thought that we, the players, are to be the whole tribunal or are we planning on NPC magi to fill out the tribunal with more magi?

However we solve it, I think the creation of a new tribunal and the hermetic politics involved will make for an exiting saga.

The plan is to not have any NPC magi. It will be a small tribunal, but that's reasonable for a new tribunal. This will do things like making this tribunal's meetings entirely about and between PC magi, which should be fun. How much do our covenants cooperate, trade, compete, etc. should be interesting.

Since Redcaps count as magi for the Order, they help qualify for tribunal validity. Counting some Redcaps, I think we'll be a little beyond that minimum. But not so far beyond that we have a truly overwhelming number of players.

Sounds good.

So we're waiting for a few more players before getting our hands dirty then.

I assume we're first waiting to see what the majority of players prefer as the Tribunal of choice, and judging by the responses so far, it seems to me a close call between Novgorod and North Africa.

How do we figure out who bands together to form a covenant?

Should we just make IC discussions where we present ourselves (when we get that far) and talk about what interests the magi and what kind of covenant they would like?

I guess if there are several Merinita or others dealing with the fae it would make sense for them to band together, just like if we have a couple of more academic oriented magi they might want to form a research covenant dedicated to some specific research goal.

There was mentioned a ex-misc Pralix magus as a possible character concept and the ideas of Pralix might not go to well together with a Flambeau hell bent on hunting down hedge wizards and the Order of Odin.

So what are the thoughts on this?
Not just Callens thoughts, but all of you.

Scandinavia has more #1 priorities than Novgorod, and while I wish for Scandinavia I'm happy to play anywhere, even across the Atlantic if that was what ended up with the most votes.

I'm partial to Scandinavia, not just because it happens to be my home, but because I find the Order of Odin to present a lot of interesting options. Also it plays nicely into the story ideas in Guardians of the Rhine, where the new covenant of Heorot in Denmark joining the Rhine tribunal is seen as an agressive expension into the territories of the Novgorod tribunal with all the hermetic politics that leads to.

On the other hand North Africa feels more isolated from the Order even though it's just on the other side of the Mediterranean. Maybe it's because Scandinavia is mostly christian by the 13th century and North Africa is not.

In reply to Player 9 (msg # 21):

Sorry, mixed Scandinavia and Novgorod.

I do think North Africa offers a more varied variety of cultures, and religions.

Also non-christian so we can take them as slaves. Quickly filling our stocks of grogs.

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 22):

That it does.

Norway, Sweden, Denmark is pretty similar and most of Finland if we add that is under Swedish control.

The Second Swedish Crusade could give an interesting backdrop when it comes around in 1240.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Swedish_Crusade

In reply to Player 9 (msg # 24):

If Novgorod is chosen there will also be plenty of warmongering potential like that, particularly in the Baltics. The Livonian Crusade offers a nice opportunity to beat the ever-living shit out of Teutonic Knights and establish a glorious pagan Empire!

That and the Mongols are coming.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:00, Wed 24 Feb 2021.

And if people were curious the Condorcet vote has Africa and Scandinavia pretty neck in neck. Novgorod and other are really far behind them.

Not actually sure what selection criteria A-SG is using but that's how it actually stands. There are still a few who haven't submitted a priority. P2 only mentioned Africa But I don't know if that was him voting or not.

Scandinavia is more people's first choice but it is also far more people's last choice where Africa is all but 2 people's first or second choice.

I feel like other would have to make a case here for a compelling specific alternative for it to get any traction.

I mentioned Near-East Tribunal. Someone mentioned an Island one. I'm not super hot on either of them. But the island one would allow me to make a Jersy Shore joke (the channel isles breaking away from being stuck between Stone Henge(?) and Normandy and joining the islands would make sense IMO) so I'm be OK with it but it would be super maritime and we would be soo pread out.

I mentioned this question in my Setup response but seemed like it may be more appropriate here, is each player going to be at a specific covenant? As in both their Companion and Mag* characters at the same covenant. I mainly ask as covenants will likely be rather small and linking one's companion to one or two other possible magi is more limiting towards concept than it would be if the companions may be at any covenant, long as there is effort to make sure they don't bunch up too much.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:55, Wed 24 Feb 2021.

In reply to Player 13 (msg # 27):

I don't think the companion has to be at the same covenant as your magus. In fact, it could be more interesting to palay them as a companion in another covenant.

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 28):

I’d prefer to play all my characters as part of the same covenant. While it could be interesting to split them up I’d prefer to not have to play two sides of the same table when tribunal politics gets heated or when two covenants fight over a vis source or something else.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 26):

Here are my reasons for preferring North Africa:
-A Covenant in the Canary Islands has interesting possibilities for colonization. They are pagan (no dominion), they are already lead by Magician-Kings (hedge wizards, join or die) so unusual opponents.
-Those who want to play Sahirs or mess with Jinn can do that.
-The magical landscape has more unknowns, as opposed to the knowns or suspected magic of Scandinavia and Novgorod, so coming up with your own Hedge Tradition isn't so contrived, and there seems to be a desire to play ex misc. by several players.
-Climates from desert, mountains, ocean, islands, trade cities, and Roman ruins all have a lot of possibilities.
-Arabic is a recent introductions, and because of the Koran, is a static language. So all of the dialects are very close to the original. Even for those who speak other languages, it is the universal trade language in North Africa prior to and after the 1200s. So learn one language, talk to everyone.
-Slavers and pirates of the coast means Grogs aren't hard to come by, and are usually European, so lots of chances to be heroic and "save" other Europeans.
-Interactions and origins available, by sea, from 8-10 different tribunals: Rome, Iberia, Provencal, Levant, Novgorod, Theban, Transylvanian, and all of the British Isles.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:42, Wed 24 Feb 2021.

Another approach to the covenant creation we could take is to wait for the tribunal to be determined, then decide upon a theme of a covenant that we would gear our character towards; gotta be something that binds said covenant together after all!

One example that I really liked came from "Hermetic Projects" the Hermetic Shipyard section; imagine a shipyard/flotilla based covenant with a Verditius/Rusticani with a focus on ships, Goetic Sorcerer binding spirits to ships, Vitkir with a focus on seafaring runes, and Mythic Alchemist for enhancing the building material itself, all using their magic to create the most powerful fleet Mythic Europe has ever seen.

Any thoughts on such an approach?
This message was last edited by the player at 17:46, Wed 24 Feb 2021.

In reply to Player 3 (msg # 31):

The approach is great, but if you check the lab total examples in Hermetic Projects it’s clear that those projects are not magi straight out of the gauntlet.

But the idea of a common theme and goal for the covenant I can easily get behind.
It might not fit all players and magi, but even one such thematic covenant would provide a lot of stuff to play on for the whole tribunal.

In reply to Player 9 (msg # 32):

True that, but it could be a goal to strive towards. Or you just come up with your own variants.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:56, Wed 24 Feb 2021.

Right I figured we would naturally group into like-minded magi and establish our own charters from there. Either of my characters would probably attempt to join a fortress covenant protecting the most hostile hinterlands of where ever we are.

Darn, my earlier reply didn't post.


I think we have a good number now, solid for a small tribunal. I think everyone I'd heard suggest elsewhere that they'd come here has arrived. I turned off the looking for players tag. But if you've got a friend on the way, it doesn't need to be a hard cap.


Yes, though nearly everyone has posted. I think the big two are Scandinavia and Africa, though I have to go through the list more carefully. Those two seemed pretty close.


My primary thought had been to look at the suggested characters to see who fits well together OOC. I suspect we could probably group things pretty well that way with a little discussion. Concepts can still be adjusted, but it gets use grouped faster that way. Also, the suggested characters will help me provide a list of possible sites that would be of interest. For instance, lots of Merinita might be happy with a Faerie Aura, or lots of Jerbiton or similar might like being near a city.


I can go either way on this. I figured it would come up in the discussion of who groups well together. Putting the companion in another covenant offers a lot more interaction and play, but you'll also be tracking things in more spots. Some could be in the same covenant while most are spread out, too. There are options.


Yes, this was the idea I had in mind. We'll know roughly what people are thinking of playing, and with a little discussion we'll probably be able to figure out some covenant themes and sort characters that way. Much of that is easier to figure out after we have the location, though, so I wanted to get the location determined first.

Whew, that would make a good fleet! Maybe include Hermetic Architecture eventually to go really nuts, though I have to double-check if that works with ships.

The way I'm tallying votes is:
6 for 1st choice
4 for 2nd choice
2 for 3rd choice
1 for any possible 4th choice

Add up the points and see what's highest. I think Player 5 and Player 12 are yet to post. I'm going to post my character ideas, but I'll reserve a vote on locations as a tie-breaker if needed.



We don't really need one Redcap per covenant. If the Redcaps can move about well, with only four covenants probably two could manage it, though they'd be stretched a little thin since they each only work two seasons. All the more reason to build some items for them, I suppose.

1 redcap with teleport boots should be able to do 4 covenants.

I figured it was something like that. One of the no-votes coming in would probably decisively decide it. It's not really that close of a race. Depending on how you count P2's comments and deal with tied rankings.

In reply to Player 3 (msg # 31):

If anyone is interested in forming a covenant based around a mengaerie, I'd love that.

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 38):

If we're in Scandinavia and I go with my Criamon concept he might be interested in a menagerie covenant as long as a plant menagerie wouldn't be too far from the covenant concept. My plan for Africa, Lineage of Pralix, doesn't really fit a menagerie focus... unless it's a menagerie of local hedge tradition practitioners. :)

My monster hunter idea for a magus would probably fit into such a covenant.

By my count player 12's vote was decisive. But A-SG might want to wait for more players before calling it or something.

Also P12 we are best friends. I also have a knack for hunting mages that don't share my beliefs!

In reply to Player 13 (msg # 39):

"Menagerie" of local hedge tradition practitioners sounds like a cool idea for Scandinavia; would fit my Trollsynir rather well.

Perhaps a covenant made to prevent native traditions from being steamrolled by foreign invaders? "If they're gonna settle our lands, they're doing it on our terms" kind of deal. Perhaps modeling it according to Hibernia's Coill Tri, much to the chagrin of both Rhine and "English" Magi.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:17, Wed 24 Feb 2021.

In reply to Player 3 (msg # 42):

My character idea for the Lineage of Pralix is pretty dependent on Southern Europe/Mediterranean so I'm not playing that idea unless the choice is Africa, but that's highly likely.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:19, Wed 24 Feb 2021.

Starting to look like it yes.
And everyone who has said anything specific about North Africa seems to favor the western part.

Well Player 5 still hasn't voted so if their votes are relatively the reverse of player 12 then we're back to a close race again.

Well as we go east we start to run up against Levant, since there is no hard physical boundary separating them from us. They don't technically extend down that far, but that is probably just because they don't need to, since no one else is claiming it. It seems reasonable that we would have a some story about inter-tribunal politics if we settled as far east as Alexandria. Granted, I love that idea and if my other ideas don't pan out I have a Jerbiton concept that would totally dig it.

@P13 We'll see. It will probably be a question of if we get more players or not. This has been advertised and recruiting for like 2 days now? More people could still come in. 5 players who really love the Azores could swing the vote to Other, technically.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 1):

I got one question regarding character creation. Would it be possible to start with some breakthroughs being available? For example; Ritual Charged Items is something I'd be interested in.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 41):

I don't usually hunt down hedge wizards. But I'm certainly looking forward to giving it a try.

Player 12's Flambeau idea* could link well to my Lineage of Pralix idea... sort of a "good cop/bad cop" act. And magically would have some serious possible overlap what with Lineage of Pralix inventing Vim countermagic spells for use against particular traditions.

* Also their Trianoman idea but to a lesser extent and since that's so much further down their list of interest...

The book restriction is really weird. I don't even remember where half the Virtues originate and it seems odd to be locked out of something dumb and thematic like Nyctophalynx because of meta-gamesmanship... How hard of a rule is that? Can we get things approved piecemeal to fit a theme? I assume the worry is unintended interactions but I'm hard pressed to think of any that need more than Core and a single page from a book.

EDIT: This game isn't even publicly advertising on RPOL? We are all just the usual suspects from the Atlas forums, Discord, Community Group?
This message was last edited by the player at 20:02, Wed 24 Feb 2021.

If that's part of your tight concept I think it would be part of the allowed virtues. For instance, Linguist is listed in the Bonisagus chapter and while I feel like an exception might be made for that virtue anyway I didn't feel the need to broach that question since it should be acceptable as part of my concept and I'm not taking any other virtues outside of the allowed books.

EDIT: Also it's easy to check where virtues are by using the free Virtue and Flaw finder pdf on Atlas' site.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:06, Wed 24 Feb 2021.

My Hunter companion could fit into that, although my magus could take it or leave it.

"Easy" to navigate a 27 page document. I generate characters with a spread sheet that just has all the virtues in it as a drop down. We didn't bother with citations. I think generally anyone who didn't get a bunch of options in their HoH:X chapter probably shares my frustration. Flambeau gave... Some mastery abilities and like 2 spell guidelines. But other magi not being able to use Vinny's Sling seems silly. It's not a secret, it's a natural consequence of existing guidelines given specific mechanics.

Guys, magi still suffocate under magical water, they can't drown but Parma doesn't generate air or force them to float right?

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 53):

Unless you got "Lungs of the Fish" or other such spell to allow breathing underwater, you'll definitely drown, even if it is magical water you're submerged in.

Suffocate, the water can't enter your lungs.

And yes, naturally you could have a spell or spont a spell to survive. Was thinking conceptually. Fog clouds are real easy to make, unbreathable fog clouds are a doable way to use a weather that bypasses MR, not that I should need it for Hedgies.

</quote>
"Easy" to navigate a 27 page document. [...]

Guys, magi still suffocate under magical water, they can't drown but Parma doesn't generate air or force them to float right?
</quote>
Yes, quite easy. It's a sorted list, the virtues are all in the first few pages and the flaws the following few, and then a repeat of both sorted alphabetically rather than by type.

Re: Air & Parma - I think that's true but the SG would know for this game.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 53):

Or you could take Greater Immunity (Drowning), Or Faerie Blood (Selkie)

I saw what the Alpha SG said about not wanting gifted Mercere. Is there any reason for this, beyond how rare they are? I ask because I would like to play one. I think it would be interesting to have a character establish a Redcap base of operation in a new and foreign tribunal.  Plus, there is always the Roman roads and potential Mercurian interest in North Africa.

Lets not turn this into a game about defeating Parma before we even get started.

Not Parma. The infernal MR no doubt possessed by the magicians of Africa. Wink wink, but also maybe seriously...

If we’re sticking to the minimum 12 magi, 4 covenants, requirements for a new tribunal, should we go for 3 man covenants or break it up more. For day to day living in the laboratory it might not mean much, but a 5 magi covenant would be a real powerhouse in such a small tribunal and we might want to avoid that.

Or not.

In reply to Player 9 (msg # 61):

I'm assuming that Covenants for this purpose are always 2+ magi which makes a covenant of 5 within those requirements less likely. Probably best to shoot for covenants of 2-4 magi anyway for the power disparity you're talking about. Also, due to the starting vis allotment instead of BP for covenant creation (which seems to be the case, maybe I misunderstood) it makes that power disparity even greater. Also, with these being all new covenants a lot of time will be spent improving the covenants rather than in the lab so those extra vis to spend will make them even more extreme. But that said, some covenants might be very focused in their "mission," such as a covenant researching some ruin near them, and not care about a political power disparity so much.

In reply to Player 9 (msg # 61):

Looks like we have 12 players, that's 12 Magi, but there are likely to be 2-3 redcaps, who could as magi for the purpose of a Tribunal, and covenant, so that would mean we could have 4 covenants with about 3-4 'magi' each.

I think a lot of us pitched a Redcap because he mentioned "We should have at least 1 redcap" Not sure it is that many of our #1 choice for our only companion. If the Praelican starts swearing in Hedgies his covenant is going to quickly accumulate votes. While a Mercer house with just a Mercere and 3 Redcaps will have only 1 vote defending their interests (plus considerable political capital probably).

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 64):

Well to clarify, in my case at least Redcap isn't my first choice for a companion. Don't particularly want to play one, but I'd be fine with it if nobody else does. Turns out half the players got a redcap as one of the companion ideas.

In reply to Player 3 (msg # 65):

That's my point, I think we all said "ya, sure if we need one" like we were volunteering to be the cleric in a misguided D&D group.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 1):

I was looking at the Hermetic Costs relative to Starting Mages. I am mathematically challenged. (easiest way to explain it) Multiplying by a negative number in a fraction confuses me. If Level of a ability summa is 6 or 7, for example, and quality is 12-14, what would the costs be? If I understand better, I can plan better.

For two seasons. But there are two more seasons. That's why I was saying it could be managed by two Redcaps if they can travel quickly.


Yup, far east and west there will be questions from neighboring tribunals. And then there is the Roman Tribunal to the north of central northern Africa, getting pretty close to it. Part of the fun. I was waiting on the tribunal decision for a precise starting year in case there was something interesting historically, but I do want to make sure we have a second tribunal meeting before the upcoming grand tribunal. And this could certainly show up some there.


No, I want to stay closer to core than that. It is something you could work on if you'd like.


I can be flexible if people want it adjusted. I was trying to make a simple rule that would prevent cherry-picking and keep characters focused while still allowing many options. But if it's not a popular solution, it can change.


Nope. I started with players I knew were asking or had already been trying to play, and that has provided plenty.


Spells aren't restricted. I encourage custom spells, so anything you want for spells, so long as it's vetted. The Flambeau chapter also has lots of alternate Virtues, which are handy.


Mostly that they are very rare and it would be unlikely they'd want to have one head off to a tiny tribunal that doesn't even exist yet. But, unless I miswrote, I didn't 100% rule it out in case someone really wants to play one.


Don't forget that Redcaps count toward that 12. We'll have 14 + Redcaps magi, so 16-17 probably.


Yes, but that doesn't include vis sources, and I was planning to make those fairly balanced between locations. So two magi get a bigger share than four.

Ability summa level 6, quality 13:

(13+8*6-25)/2 = (13+48-25)/2 = 36/2 = 18 as a ballpark, precise at covenant/character creation.

That is a crazy-good book for an Ability, so the price gets crazy. That's near, maybe in, the territory of no one ever having been capable of writing it.

Say, I'm curious about one aspect of "Comprehend Magic" most often possessed by Pralixians. The very last sentence about it:

"At the option
of the storyguide, this Ability might also
give an insight into adapting non-Hermetic
magic into Magic Theory." - HoH:S Page 129.

What is your stance on this? Do you take this to mean an automatic Insight Text or Breakthrough Points? Or something more minor?

In reply to Player 3 (msg # 70):

Thanks for asking that because I was going to ask it myself and might swap around a virtue or two depending on the answer.

Was there another Quaesitor out there? We should probably have one and I'm trying to decide between my two concepts.

I see there's a lot of slaying-hedge-magi magi but are there any hedge magi that want build an hedge covenant?

I would like to play an hermetic sahir, is there anyone else?

Am probably gonna build a Criamon. They're not really a hedge magician, but they're equally baffling to most of the other houses... :-)

I'm trying to understand the next steps in getting the game started.

So far it looks like:

1. Select a location for new Tribunal
2. Choose the number of covenants
3. Submit detailed characters - get p.v.f based on experience of the magus.
4. Assign magi and companions into covenants.
5. Create Boons/Hooks for covenants.
6. Spend p.v.f
7. Begin play.

Is there something missing?  I think that's the order it has to be in, so the magi can work together on library acquisitions and avoid overlap.

My character is going to be one year past Gauntlet.

John (Player 7)

May be because of my character's lineage's focus on inducting hedge wizards but on the Flambeau that wants to prove the superiority of Hermetic Magic to Hedge Wizards I was really concentrating on that being a part of the "join or die" thing. If it was really just "join or die!" then it would not be a fit for my character, Salma ex Miscellanea (detailed her concept in the setup thread), and I would definitely be a good to team up with a Hermetic Sahir. The canon Hermetic Sahir-Flambeau dislike might be interesting to play against.

In reply to Player 11 (msg # 73):

A Hedge Covenant would be very cool imo, regardless of what setting we end up having. By Hedge Covenant do you mean standard Ex Miscellaneas or nominally Hermetic Hedgies; no Hermetic magic at all safe for Parma?

In reply to Player 7 (msg # 75):

My understanding of the order is more:
1. [complete] Select a location for new Tribunal
2. Submit detailed characters - get p.v.f based on experience of the magus.
3. Assign magi and companions into groups based on possible linkages which will determine the number of covenants which must be at least 4.
4. Create Boons/Hooks for covenants.
5. Spend p.v.f
6. Begin play.

EDIT: stage 3 can probably be done somewhat concurrently with stage 2 based on character idea discussed before stats.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:12, Wed 24 Feb 2021.

In reply to Player 3 (msg # 77):

It's wasn't a really detailed concept, but I think that a mix of Ex Misc and Hedgies could be cool, you could bring them into the Order or protect their hedge tradition to maintain diversity. I think that either way it could be interesting.

In reply to Player 13 (msg # 76):

True, the Sahir-Flambeau dislike might be interesting. Clearly one of my flaws will be "Judged Unfairly" or "Feud (Flambeau)".

In reply to Player 11 (msg # 79):

I was saying it might be interesting to play against and the covenant being the three of us. But that depends on how focused the Flambeau is on the Die part of Join or Die.

If anyone would like to create a covenant that would eventually be a levitating one, I'd love to join that with my Criamon concept. He'd eventually provide magical birds of prey as guardians, and would be happy to provide an item that can change one's shape to a bird, so we can all fly down from the covenant when we need.

 Problem with that is managing our Aura. But either of my concepts could help on this.

Been thinking about settling for a Summoner/Theurgist. Damn it seems we're having a lot of characters interested in Spirit Magics.

In reply to Player 3 (msg # 83):

Summoning/Theurgy is a sweet, and fairly large, magical niche. Definitely one I often gravitate towards though not this time around.

Not to mention that there are a few Sahirs and that is their entire schtick.

There isn't a reasonable way to make a Non-Guernicus Quaesitor with only the few years we have?

I should clarify. I'd envisioned it slightly differently but close to that:

1. Select the region for the tribunal. (done)
2. Get enough focus on magus/companion concepts that we can group into covenants.
3. Build the magi. Doing this after grouping allows for a little tailoring, such as one person choosing to know AotH.
4. I provide several locations that our Redcaps have scouted cursorily in advance, somewhat adjusted from my original thoughts to suit the covenant groups (with some wiggle room for Boons/Hooks to be adjusted).
5. Covenant groups select/negotiate their locations and make those Boon/Hook adjustments.
6. Spend the p.v.f.
7. Begin play.

I had considered it. Actually, the Titanoi might be the most fitting Mystery Cult, and they could potentially initiate that. But I'm not interested in Tytalus. More, I was thinking of finding ghosts and compelling them more than doing summoning. There is the question of how much necromancy I really want to do. I'll probably shift a bit based on the covenant and fellow magi to not upset anyone.

Hmm... I could certainly see it giving something, and it should probably scale up with the score. But I wouldn't want it to be much, as that could tend to lead toward free integration of minor stuff. Perhaps something like each level of Comprehend Magic allows you to gain Breakthrough Points in different integration, something like 1 point in each. Maybe that's too small, though it is a bonus on top of the baseline Comprehend Magic, which is already good; so I'd rather err on the side of too small rather than too big.

Probably not. With only one Quaesitor in the tribunal, a Quaesitor would have good standing and the covenant would be situated well. But this would be a young Quaesitor nonetheless and so would have to be a Guernicus.

I've made a google spreadsheet to compute costs for spell lab texts, tractatus and summae.

https://docs.google.com/spread...Phs/edit?usp=sharing

In reply to Player 13 (msg # 76):

Killing Hedge wizards is not a priority to my Flambeau concept, proving Hermetic Magic superior by besting their magic is. Slaying them with magic is just one way of doing so. It's also the easiest way of doing so, but still, not the only way.

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 38):

Definitely interested in the menagerie idea. A Criamon animal specialist and a Merinita shapeshifter in the same place. Now that is the basis for some fascinating and confusing conversations!

As a player who really loves a lot about the Hermetic structure of the Theban Tribunal  I decided to make my character apprenticed in that tribunal. Considering we are going to be starting from the ground up in defining our peripheral code I was curious if any other players were planning on taking a similar tack. Asking both if anyone wants to try and push a Theban-like structure with me and whether others are thinking of their tribunals of apprenticeship as models they want to push when we start formulating peripheral code.

In reply to Player 13 (msg # 93):

Rather the opposite.
My character wants to get away from old stuffy arch magi and rules they have made to bolster their own power.

That being said, there still might be sound rulings and good structures worth looking at when putting together a new tribunal.

In reply to Player 9 (msg # 94):

If anything, that's why I like the Theban rules, particularly the random drawing of the Tribunal leaders/management. I also like the shards/tokens thing but that part can be gamed somewhat.

Thanks, i sent you a request

I've got one request coming in just after I removed the tag. The person also asked on Discord. Another person asked about the same time over on Discord. I'm not reopening the location vote. That's set. But I could admit two more. Since I turned off the tag, I figured I should run it by you all.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 97):

I'm fine with that.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 97):

So 14 then.

Fine by me.

I think it'd be 16, as we're at 14.

I made a new post in the other thread to start grouping into covenants and trying to hone concepts. Hopefully the instructions are clear in that last paragraph before the list. If not, ask, and I'll try to say it another way. Once we've grouped into covenants, I'm going to open one group code per covenant and create an OOC thread for each covenant so people can have internal discussions without losing track among all the other internal discussions. This overall OOC thread will remain open, too.

Perhaps my Merinita magus and the Pralix magus could live at the same covenant, close to some important site for the hedge magicians? Seeing how both have an interest in the cultures and traditions of them. As you guys were discussing earlier it would lead to interesting conflict if there were a more anti-hedge covenant as well.

There are also many magi interested in Spirits and the like, we could make a spiritual covenant?

My sahir would probably search for a spiritual covenant or an hedge covenant. (trying to escape the Flambeau "purge")

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 100):

Sounds good to me. With normal attrition (life happens) starting with a large group usually works out better.

While my Flambeau's interests isn't exactly Hedge Wizard friendly. I think that I could fit into a covenant that is more about integrating the secrets of the Hedge Magic into the Hermetic Theory than protecting the Hedge Wizards themselves.

That said, I could have my concept favour whichever outcome of the Join or Die which would make it fit whatever covenant he ends up with. As mentioned before, while it might be the easiest way to do so, besting Hedge Wizards doesn't have to involve killing them after all.

As the Pralician I am fine with either or both of the Flambeau and Merinita. It seems like the Sahir is thinking of a different covenant concept.

In reply to Player 10 (msg # 101):

I've finally made up my mind as to which of my Magi ideas I'll run with.

An Ilfetu Mystic, searching through the former territories of the Gothic Kingdoms of Northern Africa in search for any hints of Birna's magics. Perhaps the Gothic Shapeshifters of the past followed the invasions and settled these lands. Hedge Wizards could prove to be potential recruits...or scions of the Witch Cult. Regardless; while he hopes to fulfill this purpose, he also hopes to use the opportunity to become a renowned author on the topic of Africa's supernatural landscape among the Bjornaer, and perhaps among the wider Order!

As such he would also be interested in a covenant that wants friendly relations with the local Hedge Wizards.

In reply to Player 13 (msg # 105):

Would love to have my Flambeau join your Pralixian. Though it's starting to look a bit crowded in that covenant, I'll preliminarily add my concept to you three.

The hedge integration covenant seems already full, so I added a spiritualistic covenant.

In reply to Player 12 (msg # 107):

We have 15-16 players so 4 isn’t too large, it’s about the average for the minimum number of covenants.

If player 10 is doing a Mercere, there certainly could be a chapter house, maybe with other magi. My mage will be good at necromancy and longevity, though not really a healer. That longevity bit could be handy for a Mercere house, but they do outsource a lot so that isn't necessary. Meanwhile, being good with ghosts pairs well with those working with other spirits.

Yup. Counting Redcaps, we'll probably have 5ish covenants with just shy of 4 apiece on average. Of course, it could be that some pairs of magi make smaller covenants and we end up with several more covenants.

In addition to being the place for the Gifted Mercere, Redcap central would probably be a good fit for #4s Guernicus concept and I'd be happy to join with a Verditius who would like to make stuff helping the redcaps getting around. Who can say no to a flying carpet?

Oh, ya, a magic-carpet making Verditius would fit right in there! You're right that that might be a good fit for a Guernicas, though the Guernicas might be happy elsewhere, too.

Oh, I should have suggested we include a parenthetical note on that list with the covenants of the level of SGing (Alpha, Beta, Gamma (my term for next below Beta), or none). That way we can see what the covenants have as far as representation that way.

Point of order?

We must have a Bonisagus and a Quaesitor to hold a tribunal meeting?

I might Combine my concepts into a single Guernicus, if we don't have one otherwise. Guernicus Hoplites are nearly as common as Flambeau and keeping the Hedgifying concept he could integrated Hermetic Hedge Terram Magic into the Terrae-Magi cult (if anyone has an idea on where details for that cult could be found I'm all ears.)

He would still be pushing to shape the preihial code of the tribunal. Specifically trying to get an eye for an eye precedent on unintentional transgressions so that he can freely mass-scry the region for threats and apprentices.

I still want a fortress covenant at the deepest extreme of our boarders near some known threat or natural defensive position. Playing assassins creed origins it seems there are some decent spots south of Alexandria but the source is understandably questionable. Having a battle ready and Quaesitor equipped covenant on our boarder with the Levant might also send a message.

For that matter if people were looking for a research covenant it could reasonably be in the untamed and more dangerous high risk high reward areas of the tribunal's territory. So maybe people could get behind that?

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 115):

I’m up for either.
Border fortress or deep wilderness research covenant.

I can also swap the Verditius for a Bonisagi and still make flying carpets.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 115):

Terrae cult is detailed in HoH:TL and p67 of The Sundered Eagle. There is an inset but there might be further relevant info in the description of Hedyosmos covenant.

Also, I dontbelieve a Bonisagus is necessary. Guernicus is necessary or they will send one so good to have them as a PC.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 115):

We don't have to have a Bonisagus to hold Tribunal Meetings. Not unless we want to add that to our local rules. My Flambeau would be all for such shenanigans.

What we need is 4 Covenants, 12 Magi, and 1 Quaesitor. Any fewer Covenants, Magi, or Quaesitores in attendance and the Tribunal meeting is invalid.

https://jarkmanpages.wordpress...cellany/terrae-magi/

What, the Bonisagus has been prevented from coming again?

Yes, the tytalus answered, apparently his horse suddenly got ill. Probably something it ate.

I know it's specifically not in Ture Lineages. It literally says the details of the cult are beyond the scope of this book when it mentions them.

Thanks for the link.

Right, it's the senior most magus is chairman if there is no Boni or if the Boni is some kid no one respects.

EDIT: OOH, seems they are real dick heads and would not welcome my efforts. Possibly a good reason to fuck off to literally Bumfuk, Egypt. But I don't actually see the info presented in the link in either of the published works, if he just made that up then we can just make ours up.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:54, Thu 25 Feb 2021.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 122):

You're talking about the Praeco. Yeah, that's the senior Magus or Maga. Unless you live in Rhine or Transylvania who have other rules for determining the Praeco, or Thebes, who I don't think have a Praeco. I might be misremembered the Thebes bit.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:53, Thu 25 Feb 2021.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 122):

“I know it's specifically not in Ture Lineages. It literally says the details of the cult are beyond the scope of this book when it mentions them.“

Well I found you the page ref for The Sundered Eagle where they discuss the things they initiate.

You’re correct about Thebes, they have an Archon determined from a council of magistrates (Arche) which is randomly determined..

Yes, thanks. It gives a little insight. But it's super regional. I'll have to work out details with a SG who wants to cover that portion of things to really get much out of the cult other than a Cult Lore that I can get books on rather than having to practice a new cult into existence.

I love/hate/love again that they put in that bit about summoning being non-tainted despite the source saying that it's tainted regardless of the realm. It seems like a dig at the other author's overreach and it mirrors what I've always said about it, that there is no reason for the line to be there since there are other summoning methods in other books that aren't tainted. Them referencing summoning that way does give me hope that Binding might be available and the guy in Thebes just doesn't have the script. Since Binding has too many amazing things about it to easily list.

I've put Redcap central in the setup thread, now to see if anyone bites. ;)

And I put the boarder fortress. I think that could easily be combined with the Spirit covenant. The spirits are stronger in the untamed region we are chilling, local hostile spirits present both a research opportunity and a threat. Infernal Sahirs bind them against us, and since they are Infernal we can't in conscience come to a peace?

Also gives an in for my Devil Child Lite companion concept.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 126):

Goetic (aka all spirits) summoning is always tainted, the goetic section of RoP:Infernal specifically talks about how there are other more specific forms of summoning that are not, the Terram Summoning can only affect beings related to Terram, maybe just magic ones, and is in that class of more specific summoning.

My Merinita magus is prob most interested in the Berbers magical pagan traditions. Is there any specific magical tradition or area your characters care espically about?

In reply to Player 10 (msg # 130):


Anything with a whiff of Shapeshifting. Lands of Northern Africa used to be under the control of Vandal and Gothic Kingdoms. My Bjornaer is interested to find if there are any traces of Birna's magic, or that of the Witch Cult to be found among the local Hedge Wizards since magicians tend to follow their people's migrations.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:58, Thu 25 Feb 2021.

Let's try this: https://docs.google.com/spread...Phs/edit?usp=sharing

In reply to Player 10 (msg # 130):

My Filii Pralicis is interested in the Settuten which are within both the Berber and Tuareg cultures (some different abilities available). As a woman Tuareg She would likely have been apprenticed to a Settuten had her life gone differently. But her focus on language implies an interest in possibly ancient stuff found in ruins and whatnot. I left that open since there might be a particularly interesting plot thread or historical site at or near where we decide to make our covenant. Curious to see the sites suggested by Callen (and others?).

In reply to Player 7 (msg # 132):

That works. Thanks.

It's not from an official book, but the guy this blog belongs to is one of the Ars Magica writers. And could at least be a good basis for what we do.

Re: combining current covenant ideas into one covenant mentioned in the Setup thread but figure discussion of that is better in this thread.

We should
a) wait until at least a few more folks have self-selected their covenant of interest.
b) only combine the smallest covenants.
c) There is a whole lot of possible territory so that two covenants require being off in the middle of nowhere is not really a good reason to combine those though there may be other good reasons to combine them.

It's not from an official book, but the guy this blog belongs to is one of the Ars Magica writers. And could at least be a good basis for what we do.
</quote>
Maybe, Nature Lore really doesn't feel like it is anything like what Guernicus was doing since he was a Mercurian. He had an excuse in there for it, that he learned the stuff from his hippy girlfriend, but that still doesn't seem to fit as well as them having Earth Might specific versions of the Goetic summoning techniques. Plus the Divination mentioned in Sundered Eagle.

@P13 Ya, we are sort of all in the middle of nowhere, that is the point of a new Tribunal. Even being on the coast still puts you pretty far from the rest of the order, it just lets you get mail easier.

But I still think my suggestion for combining with the spirit covenant is coherent and so far only involves 2 declared magi. But it was P11's idea so I don't want to completely co-opt it if he's not down.

Addressing the comment in the Setup thread, I don't mind where the boarder covenant is. It was just a comment that it might make sense there and it would have certain diplomatic repercussions.

Am I remembering right that Sahir is actually very versatile between the realms since Djinn is a super-type like giant or dragon that goes between realms? Sahir that deal with magic Djinn we are cool with? Sahir that deal with Infernal Djinn are to be decisively dealt with? Flambeau is just misguided in thinking that all fall into the second category since he met them first?

I could not find it listed on the wiki though there was mention of the virtue w/r/t vis for post-gauntlet years, what is the annual vis yield supplied by Personal Vis Source virtue?

Yes, it works with all types.

Separate: The Hermetic Sahir are from a western tradition near Iberia, so there could be a draw eastward, but also westward.

<quote Player 13>
I could not find it listed on the wiki though there was mention of the virtue w/r/t vis for post-gauntlet years, what is the annual vis yield supplied by Personal Vis Source virtue?
</qutoe>
I had thought of that and just never did it. I did mention you won't keep any from the extra years, but you could use it within those years. I like the 3:2 ratio for basic value of Techniques:Forms. We know 2:1 is naturally incorrect, even though it's canonical; it can only get there if forced there, and that would result in House Mercere ending up with only Technique vis in the end, would would make their trading fail. So I would like to keep that 3:2 ratio for things like Personal Vis Source. I'm trying to find that spot in the book where it talks about vis-poor v. vis-rich games to gauge 1/10 of something...

Do we have a green light to start forming our characters in detail?  If so, how fresh are we?  I might have already put together my Tremere doctor-tempted-by-knowledge-not-meant-for-humankind, but he's freshly minted post gauntlet.  Are we pink-cheeked and rosy, or have we been around a bit post-gauntlet?

FMB

Rules are on the wiki. But we are real fresh. Something like 1-4 years post I think.

Not sure about pre apprenticeship. Might be of interest for a doctor or our Verditius.

In reply to Player 16 (msg # 140):

Detailed character creation limits in the wiki but at most 3 years post-gauntlet. If you choose to give yourself years post-gauntlet check the wiki for those rules.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:25, Thu 25 Feb 2021.

In reply to Player 7 (msg # 132):

Thank you. This spreadsheet will be very helpful a few moves down the road.

In reply to Player 7 (msg # 132):

In the Menagerie/Monster Hunter Covenant we have a Craimon fascinated with Eagles, a Merinita that Shapeshifts into a Black Kite, and a Shapeshifting Tytalus. This sounds like a group who could easily live in the Atlas Mountains, or any of the mountains on the west side of North Africa, for that matter.

We haven't gotten to looking at sites, just making an observation. Having a Guernicus attached to the Covenant also brings up several potential stories. It will be an interesting mix!

Solely in terms of culture and geography I was thinking good sites for the Hedge Wizard Relations covenant would be the desert side of the Atlas Mountains (Saharan Atlas Range or Anti-Atlas Rage per URL below) or coastal desert south of Nul (labeled on the trade map linked in the wiki). This would make us close to both Berber and Tuareg cultures. Closer to a place like Marrakesh may be a possibility as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...ntains-Labeled-2.jpg

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 141):

Thanks for this - found the wiki, and following up.  One question - it references the usual limits on books.  I know thre's limits associated with covenant size and resources, but we don't have covenants, so where might these limits be found?

Apologies for the barrage of questions, it's been a while since I've played, and I'm feeling pretty enthusiastic about this.

FMB

How detailed should we do craft skills?
Carpenters tend to be carpenters while there are a lot of different varieties of smiths?

So how specific should craft skille be?

Asking as the verditius ;)
This message was last edited by the player at 19:27, Thu 25 Feb 2021.

In reply to Player 16 (msg # 146):

Rather than spending BP to define the resources of the covenant we will get a vis allotment and spend that on things we have brought with us such as books, enchanted items, lab texts, etc.

I am not sure what part in partiucler you are referencing with the limits of books.

The Usual Limits on books are in the core book, p. 71. Ability summae cannot be higher than level 8, and Arts summae cannot be higher than 20.  Note that our storyguide is allowing tractatus over quality 11, but they cost a lot of PVF.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:34, Thu 25 Feb 2021.

In reply to Player 7 (msg # 149):

I assume that when we are banded together in covenants we can talk a bit together so we don't get 4 Rego summae Q12 L12 in the same library.

In reply to Player 13 (msg # 145):

Somewhere around Ouled-Naïl Mountains would be great. Not too far from either Berber or Tuareg, but also not too far from civilization and sites my Bjornaer would be interested in.

Others have posted the limits and costs. Thanks.

Yes, we're grouping as covenants to give people a chance to coordinate as a covenant.

I was looking at site in Tassili N'Ajjer National Park (for no one in particular I just always look in National Parks for magic Auras). Apparently it has a lot of caves and cave drawings. Maybe good for the spirit guy? Ghosts? Or maybe in ME there are still practitioners there.

Yoo, Egypt actually has a legit Adventurer's Guild!?

I know which one of my Companion concepts I'm picking!

(Edit): Holy shit, there's more! LotN Page 47 has the following insert:

Use Whatever You Like
"If you have earlier Ars Magica supplements,
traces of many of the hedge
magician types described in them can
be found in Egyptian relics. Egypt has
such deep history that a roughly parallel
version, weaker in some aspects
and more potent in others, to virtually
every other magical tradition listed in
preceding Ars Magica supplements, can
be found somewhere in the ruins that
line the Nile. Even groups like the trollblooded
magi of the frozen North seem
to have parallels. In that case, there
were similar mages among the servants
of the ancient desert spirits."

I mean, I knew there were Egyptian variants of Learned Magicians, but local variants of Trollsynir?
This message was last edited by the player at 21:27, Thu 25 Feb 2021.

Now am thinking that if I give my Criamon the Shapeshifter/Skinwalker/Lycanthrope Virtue/Flaw, it could be a covenant that might rub most Bjornaer the wrong way... :-)

So, when covenant locations have been assigned and we start building the covenants.
Do we pay for buildings, labs and the like with silver from our p.v.f.?

Or de we get some covenant BP that cannot be spent on books and the things we can bring as supplies.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:37, Thu 25 Feb 2021.

In reply to Player 9 (msg # 156):

I was assuming only things we can bring with us and that enough lab equipment has been shipped with us, one for each PC magus, at no cost as that is a free part of covenants. But then I also assume there are no building there either until we build them. We arrive at the sites with some stuff and grogs but no existant covenant or community (though some sites might have a community in or near them).

P13 that's what I figured as well. The rule was no lab bonuses before game start so if you want a bigger lab just bring cash to find it.

You won't get separate BP for the location. Approaches will vary. One group may arrive with some Creo/Terram vis and make a tower. Another might arrive with lots of silver and buy a large building in a city. Etc. That will surely be part of the discussion each covenant ends up having.

Hopefully everyone notices the greater losses of p.v.f. for each subsequent year and finds a balance that works for them and their covenant. For example, if everyone in a covenant is 3 years out of gauntlet and they bring some Terram vis and a casting tablet for Conjuring the Mystic Tower, they won't have much of anything left at that point.

Yes, you can assume the lab equipment for your lab, but nothing beyond. That would fall under having any reasonable equipment for your station, but not having any superior/excellent stuff.

Yup. For a bigger lab, just build a bigger one or buy a bigger building or similar based on the approach your covenant takes.

Players 4 and 11, my mage would probably fit well with the two of yours. We're all looking at different varieties of summoning, so there is a fair amount of fit there. We'd be split between jinn, Terram, a ghosts, so different things but a fair amount of commonality. Also, there would be two native Arabic speakers.

Player 4, it's worth noting that my position on Summoning and Chthonic Magic v. Spirit Familiar was changed a little while ago. Having reread Spirit Familiar after hearing arguments both ways, I found all it actually does is allow you to bond with a spirit. The special Cords are a result of bonding with a spirit, not of the Virtue. So those Cords should apply if you bind to a spirit via Summoning or Chthonic Magic. Of course, the latter would be for a demon, so that would be a big no-no for other reasons. ;) Also, since the Terrae Cult's Summoning changes spirits to Terram-aligned stuff, you could form a Familiar Bond with something else, such as an earth elemental. So if you do get that version of Summoning, you may not want to bother picking up Spirit Familiar; but the latter is still working picking up if you don't get the former.

I would note for everyone that, unless I'm mistaken, it was Player 10 who was considering a Gifted Mercere. Player 10 looks to have decided to make a Merinita. So there probably will not be a Gifted Mercere. But there can still be a chapter house for the Redcaps rather than putting them within the other covenants.

So, since some magi are considering that covenant, of those who mentioned playing a Redcap, which ones really want to v. which ones are on the fence v. which ones don't want to but were willing if needed? If we've got a small handful and they like the idea of a a chapter house, then that certainly works well.

Is anyone else interested in a mobile covenant for exploring Africa?  Or should I bring that concept along to another covenant (since a Verditius at or near Gauntlet won't be able to build that right away anyway).

Fits in with both Monster Hunting and Deep Wilds Exploration as far as I can see.

You might also consider working from a static covenant but using a mobile staging area. For example, you might build a ship that can fly your magus and your grogs wherever and return to the covenant.

Yes, you have a green light. I would go to gauntlet and not beyond at first. You may want to get into covenant discussion before choosing how many years you go beyond since it will cut into resources. As someone mentioned, you can be up to three years out.

There was one unresolved question: Not everyone liked the limited book rule. I mentioned I was willing to adjust. But then I heard no more complaints. Do people want that altered? Or is it working pretty well?

My imagination has provided me with a castle perched on a permanent mound of sand, (among other things, so it just looks "normal" when not moving).  Haven't worked out the precise details yet.  Happy to stage out of a normal covenant, depending what other people are looking for.  I did notice there are a handful of magus concepts that don't have homes yet, too.

In reply to Player 14 (msg # 164):

This concept is really intriguing, a traveling covenant that stops from time to time in some place to do his things (recover vis, rituals, search ancient knowledge, summon some spirit). You really caught my attention.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 166):

For my Sahir I stayed away from things like Hermetic Theurgy cause they need Initiation, did I understand correctly?

Somehow I skipped this one when replying earlier. I prefer medium. I don't like things like "Craft: Metal." That's way too broad for me. But too narrow gets ridiculous in the balance between simulation and experience points. No point, for instance, in distinguishing between a goldsmith and a silversmith since the techniques are basically the same. Meanwhile, C&G makes a good point about material v. product. So keep it reasonably broad, but not so broad as putting all metal in one category.

I don't see a whole lot of point in it and it seemed rather restrictive considering the books chosen but with this character I don't think there is much I would change if things were opened up, maybe one minor virtue. As it is the only virtue I took outside of the normally allowed stuff was Linguist and that doesn't seem all that appropriate to be limited to Bonisagus anyway, not to mention it is central to my character's concept.

Well, you can branch out a little from your main books. For a Hermetic Sahir, you've got the core book, Apprentices, Grogs, and the last chapter of HoH:S. But you may also choose one other book from which to grab a theme. So, for instance, you might go to TMRE and choose Cabal Legacy + whatever that leads to it + Hermetic Theurgy all within one cult, paying for them from your initial V&F as Cabal Legacy says.

I don't want to deal with initiations over the 0-3 years past gauntlet, though. However, Mystery Cults once play starts are a fun thing, so that could be something to build toward.

I'm not interested in a mobile covenant. To the point that I would not join it. I would rather have a big lab and a high aura. I do plan on exploring the continent but it won't be in my lab (maybe from my lab I guess).

A-SG I don't much care about spirit familiars, I'm far more interested in finding out what the sects of the cult outside of Thebes have.

I honestly didn't see the point other than I can't take Exciting Experimentation and Imbued with the Spirit of Terram, it's not a synergy I just want them both. that's probably true of anything else I want from any of the other books. Like I couldn't take Cabal Legacy and the virtues from my mystery cult...

Players 7 and 8, what shape/s were you thinking about for your shapeshifting?

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 171):

I was planning on using part of my initial virtues for a house specific mystery Virtue, and some fairy virtues and flaws. But the flaws and  the virtues balance, and fit within a theme.

As far as the book rules, I'm not a huge fan of character limitations in general, although I do like staying with an explainable theme. If the player can explain how his character got the way he is, go for it. But that's me, and this is a big group, so some level of structure is necessary.

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 173):
Jaegar would have two base shapes, and develop a third pretty early on. A large black dog and a black or red kite. The kite has migrated, at least in his first year post gauntlet.

Macrinus has a Shapeshifting of two, so Wolf and Falcon.

Is there a specific way/location on the site to post potential characters for approval? Just unfamiliar with this website.

Tell A-SG what your name is and he can created a character for you and assign a sheet to it. You would get to it through Character Details up in the top left.

As Player 4 said, best to give me a name (I can change it later if you want.) and for me to create that. Then you can go to Character Details and edit the sheet. Normally that might be the main sheet for you, but enough are beta SG's or similar and we'll probably make those their primaries, so I've just left all the Player N names as primaries for now. When you post you can select who you post as.

Sounds like a bunch of people don't like the book limitations. I'm fine removing them.

Hi guys, #15 here! Sorry I'm late to the game.

A few questions:  Are you using the economy and lab modification rules from Covenants? (I dislike them but I know everyone else likes them).  Are we okay starting with Common Mysteries from the beginning of the Mysteries book?  Do we need all three book-making Abilities to write books (Scribe, Bookbinder, Illuminator)?  How readily available are books for those interested in finding more books through the Redcaps or through mundane trade?

I like the lab modification stuff. I don't love the effort of tracking all the little covenant expenses, but they do keep some realism to the functioning of an odd medieval situation. Someone wrote a good spreadsheet for that at some point...

Common Magics are OK. And since we just relaxed the book restrictions, they're right there for the taking.

You, personally, don't need all those Abilities to make a book. Someone would need them somewhere along the line. Typically the magus just writes in tablets and hands those off to be copied into an actual book by other people with those Abilities.

Trade for books in Arabic will be pretty simple. Trade for more distant stuff will take some time, but I'm sure the local Redcaps could expedite the process for a small consideration. ;) You will need something to trade for or money to spend to get them, though.

In reply to Player 14 (msg # 167):

While a tribunal with two Verditius magi focused on flying stuff could provide some interesting rivalry I'd rather find something other to play.

So if you want the flying I'll magically turn into a monster hunter and join the menagerie full of non-Bjørnar shapechangers.

Besides, as Player 9, I'll fit straight in with player 6,7 & 8 ;)
This message was last edited by the player at 04:49, Fri 26 Feb 2021.

I've hear he was giving bonus XP for a straight after all. It is weird all the hunters are shape shifters. Why would you debase yourself by becoming a lesser predator?

Awkwardly, the character I would want to play is very determined by the covenant I end up in.

Monster Hunters / Menagerie
- Bonisagus Lycanthrope

Hedge recruitment and integration
- Trianoma librarian

Spiritual Knowledge (spirits, ghost, entities...) [possible merge with the Deep Wilds Research Covenant?]
- Tremere researcher

Redcap Chapterhouse/Covenant? (one of Coastal Cities, Central Location):
- Verditius crafter in debt to the redcaps

Boarder Fortress/Deep wilds research covenant (no reason they can't be the same)
- Elementalist who dislikes Sahir

I also really like the idea of Conscientia from Magi of Hermes, but I doubt anyone here would pay me to make crazy spells for them. ;)

It might be the menagerie they are attracted to.
Not the monster hunting part

In reply to Player 15 (msg # 185):

I should probably try to push you towards one of the less populous covenants but I like the idea of a Trianoman Librarian at the covenant I’ll be at.

In reply to Salma ex Miscellanea (msg # 187):

I was actually recently joking how everyone wants a bookwriter in their covenant.

In reply to Player 15 (msg # 188):

Well Salma will be a writer/translator herself, just felt the concept fits in conjunction with her being a bookish type.

He's not really focused on flying stuff; could say focused on Terram to a certain extent, but his focus is more exploration and hunting, he just wants to be able to take his house/lab with him.

I don't want to make you feel you need to abandon your idea; I don't see a lot of overlap between what I have in mind and a maker of flying carpets...  It's not really terribly difficult to make a flying carpet so that might not be a hugely interesting focus anyway, though.
This message was last edited by the player at 06:25, Fri 26 Feb 2021.

I like bookish types, I admit. I'll probably play a sociable magus supporting either the redcaps or the Guernicus.

Will you be my pen pal though?
This message was last edited by the player at 07:19, Fri 26 Feb 2021.

I know, but we all got to start somewhere.
https://youtu.be/1dMbxrspfoU?t=131

But if you're just a ReTE specialist moving big stuff with magic I'll not throw my verditius out the window, I'll think a bit more on it.

Worth noting I'm also a defacto ReTe specialist. Since A) it's good and B) I assume my modified version of the Goetica will use ReTe rather than ReVi? Rego either way.

Why is it that most of my ideas for characters end up with needing a lot of XP in non hermetic skills?

Let's play a Verditius.
    Sure, just remember to add a decent craft skill and sink som XP in Philosophiae.

Hey, those Ramius Flambeau look interesting.
    Oh they are, and in addition to those weapons skills you probably need a bit more strength.

I guess I just want to complicate it for myself.

Like those are getting you something as a Verditius. Reasonably any well rounded character should have some mundane skills. I should probably have more than I do as a Quaesitor.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 163):

Yes I abandoned that concept because your reason made sense. This concept is better tied to Africa as well so its all good.

Sure, a Verditius and a Ramius Flambeau, amongst others, can be Ability intensive, but it's not a bad thing. My Criamon has Animal Ken and Handle Animal that he'll be investing it, and probably a few more, like Bargain.

If it's part of the character concept, go for it. Plus, it might give your Magus something else to do and use even in avergae-high Faerie/Infernal/Divine Aura. And when you don't want to advertise you're a Magus.

You might not have a score of 5 in either of the Abilities. But remember that your apprenticeship has cut into your time investing in them, but has given you tools that will build upon them, and you can increase them in time.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just frustrating when you're trying to sort your (always to few) XP out into all the skills you need.

But I agree that it tends to make more interesting characters, maybe that's why I always end up with those kinds of character concepts.

In reply to Player 9 (msg # 198):

I have found that having your magi start their Apprenticeship later than usual helps a little bit with raising their mundane abilities.

Does anyone know a good place to read about the faerie in the Iberian Tribunal?

It does help a bit.
According to Apprentices the average age at the start of apprenticeship is 8 years.

I usually have my characters start around 9-14

I hadn't thought about that. For that one, that makes a lot of sense. With the other one (ghosts, animate dead, and similar), it's messier; maybe Me or Co depending on what you're affecting? I'm debating that v. the standard version of Summoning.

Too bad Corpse Magic is Major. It looks fun, but it's a big investment without being Major, and so much can be handled by Hermetic magic anyway.

I would start with "duende." Here is the wikipedia page I get when I do that search on Google:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duende

In reply to Player 9 (msg # 201):


I always want to take Magister in Artibus, but then your character ends up awfully close to needing a longevity ritual.

And if you're valuable, your covenant may get one for you. My mage will be good at longevity rituals, though only OK at the start.

Regarding Skinchanger Virtue. when transformed, can the Magi be affected by Animal spells cast on him?

Other forms of summoning should not be confused with goetia. My understanding is they do not allow swapping Rego and the relevant form in the same way as goetic summoning nor is their a mastery ability associated with them. Obviously any of that can be house ruled.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:24, Fri 26 Feb 2021.

In reply to Salma ex Miscellanea (msg # 208):

I mean...the Summoning feat performed by the Terra Cult is not really that different from what standard Hermetic Magic can do. If I'm not mistaken, Tytalus contributed his knowledge of Goetic Arts to Bonisagus' theory, and Guernicus likely did the same with his earth magic.

Assuming the Summoning formula for the Terra-Cult's Summoning variant is the same as for Goetic Summoning, you could still argue that a Hermetic Magus should be able to swap out Realm Lore in that formula with his Terram Form, or summoning itself with Rego, but of course that is up to the DM. I agree that you wouldn't gain access to Goetic spell Mastery.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:39, Fri 26 Feb 2021.

Salma will happily be your pen pal.

Callen, I'm thinking of reworking Salma and while Gentle Gift is a fantastic virtue removal of a negative is not very "fun" compared to other options. I noticed you allow for the alternate Elemental Magic rules that give XP during Character Gen and I was curious if you were thinking something similar with Secondary Insight. I still might not choose that but knowing if that was the case and what the benefit at character gen is would be useful to know in deciding where to go with the character.

Ok, I tried to cut and paste to Character Description. It stripped out all formatting, and made a mess. Is there a way to do this that isn't plain text? I am assuming I am doing it wrong, considering the mess created.
If there is no possible way to use a chart or table, these are going to require complete reworking, so they aren't a mess.

In reply to Player 8 (msg # 212):

Use Bars


|This| is |a|tabel|
|Str|+1
|int|+3

Yes, by Animal or Corpus or Mentem. He needs to penetrate to claw/bit/etc. something, too.


They do have you use the same rules as Summoning. They are variants rather than something entirely different. The necromancy one is tainted as well, making it even more similar.

I agree with several that Goetic Mastery doesn't apply because they aren't Goetic.


I would be totally open to a house rule that does similar with Secondary Insight. Secondary Insight has some flavor, but it's the worst of all the Major Hermetic Virtues. That TMRE rule for Elemental Magic makes a good chunk of difference. Doing the same for Secondary Insight makes it finally palatable in my mind. It's a little trickier figuring out where the points go since it's predetermined with Elemental Magic. I'll have to think on that a little.


There are a few ways. If you have a png, gif, etc., you can post an image or a group of images. I did that with GURPS. The site accepts EZ tables as well as the more complicated BBcode tables. I think you an also have BBcode handle html if you can export it as html.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 214):

Re: Secondary Insight - Don’t think too hard about it I’m definitely  leaning more towards Flawless Magic.

OK. Tell you what: You know I'll adjust if you take it, so keep that in consideration. For now I won't bother. Then, if you do decide you'll probably take it, we'll work out the specifics.

In reply to Salma ex Miscellanea (msg # 215):

I was considering taking Secondary Insight, even before you posted your question.

Sundered Eagle they literally reference their summoning as the one from RoP:I but only for earth might so the formulae are for sure the same. The Goetic Mastery isn't that great without a Heirarchy score. I don't see a reason to disallow it, gaining the score in an ability I have no reason to level and books all belong to a secret cult to my casting total isn't worth a mastery slot. Granted that also means I don't care if I can't take it because I never would. May as well ban Secondary Insight or Sound Constitution.

I really want to get Binding if possible but in the one side bar describing the initiations available to that specific mystagogue it isn't listed so it will be between me and a GM.

Then I should come up with something... Quick estimate working off of Elemental Magic: Of the points put into Arts for character creation 50% of the points put into Techniques are added to Forms, spread evenly over at least 5 Forms, and 25% of the points put into Forms are added to Techniques, spread evenly over at least 3 Techniques.

Does that seem to be a reasonable parallel? I chose 5 and 3 because the minimum is 4 and 2, but they're likely to be spread broader.

Binding, as purely Infernal, not just Tainted, doesn't show up with anywhere near the same breadth as Summoning. RoP:tI is pretty up-front about that. But, you can still get a Familiar without it, and I've said my interpretation is that the Terrae Cult's summoning opens up some breadth of available Familiars.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 218):

Goetic Mastery or a house ruled ability that is similar is pretty powerful, being able to add a third quick advancing art is good, even without a hierarchy score and upping one’s mastery is helpful as with summoning you will likely want Penetration as the first mastery special ability.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 219):

It seems reasonable

Ah, missed that parenthetical the first time through. I have too many breakthroughs on my plate already to try and figure out a was to make a magical equivalent.

Also Missed that summoning increases as an Art. But I still probably wouldn't have hardly any ranks because of source availability and the fact that only one helps me invent other useful spells.

Strictly speaking I'm part of the cult so I have a cult lore to do my own thing. Summoning is nice, especially when we don't have other grogs or livestock, but with being a Quaesitor I'll be stretched thin. InVi for investigation, ReTe for the murder make, Abilities for being a competent member of society.

In reply to Salma ex Miscellanea (msg # 221):

Yup. That's why Ceremonial Casting is so nice: add two Abilities and maybe a couple other points. Doesn't work in the heat of battle, but it is fabulous for general penetration.

Oops. I fixed the lock on the spell and effect threads. I forgot it auto-locks them when you pin them.

What is this game ruling on Shape and Material Magical Focuses while enchanting? It doesn't matter what effect I'm putting on them so long as it's a sword? Sword that lets me fly, Sword that shoots fireballs, sword that fills tapped buckets with water?

@A-SG We are going to document the final vetted version on the wiki then once we discuss them?

Also how are we doing companions? Do I need to find a magus that will take my companion on? I was wanting to do an agent that is nominally infernal. So it will take some discussion.

For the Alpha: Am I correct in assuming variant RDTs of standard spells generally don't really need approval as long as the new RDT doesn't significantly change the spell?

For instance a group target "Pillum of Fire" might depend on rulings around whether one can target a single person with all the pillums but that things like a moon duration "Maintaining the Demanding Spell" don't significantly change the spell outside of duration.

For everyone: Those of you with a better idea than me about Sahir magic what might be useful specialized PeVi or ReVi types for spells similar to those listed in the Lineage of Pralix section?

As in those spells using guidelines that include a bit like "Dispel effects of a specific type."

It is canonical, though I'm not really a fan of that ruling. So how about let's say yes, but be conservative with it, such as "wooden wands" being narrow enough that it's not a lot of use outside the purpose or just not enchanting a ton if you want a broad material? More than a few times I've had to figure out what is a reasonable way to apply a limit. That's where my house rule on Faerie Sympathy comes from, for example.


Of spells and enchanted effects? Yes, I will. That will make it easier to stay consistent and easier for others to build similar spells and effects.


I would think someone would be happy to have that companion. We all do choose Hooks, after all.


Correct. If there are some oddball bits to it as a result, it can be worth checking. But if it's a straightforward shift, just go for it.


ReVi wards against jinn. PeVi lowering magic resistance.


Ah, dispelling specific types of magic? Dispelling a Sihr bargain? I'd have to check that particular one, though, if that would get to the point of being a Ritual or if Formulaic spells could do it.

I generally like the house rule that a shape but not a material focus applies. So wooden Wands or swords (might not be minor though) works but metal doesn't. But this is just how I've ruled in a game I was in.



Yes, I don't think I could destroy the bargain as that is not actually mystical, least on the side of the Sahir, seems more an essential feature of Djinn being required to obey bargains. I was thinking more ReVi with a duration to make it so the Sahir can't summon any of its Djinn but it would not interfere with the Sahir from directing any that were currently hanging about them. This would use a similar model as Quiet the Cursing Tongue. Though now I am maybe getting into Spell Approval territory.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 228):

So, I have two questions about books. First of all, what Level and Quality is a Root?
Secondly, do all of the books in the pdf from Atlas Games cost 0.1, or are books on certain Abilities there not "mundane"?

The PDF for those who don't have it: https://www.atlas-games.com/pd...ksByAbilityIndex.pdf

Atlas actually published many of them, somewhat implicitly, in Semita Errabunda: Creo, Intellego, Auram, Herbam, Ignem, Vim all at level 6, quality 21. But canonically there are 9, and that's only 6. So I'll include 3 more, but we can decide which ones we feel are best, or I can roll randomly. For the others there are still primers, which should be available for the same price; they're just not up to the point to be considered a true root. I figure those could be level 5, quality 15. I figure the notes about two roots having been superseded is that some of the roots were originally level 6, quality under 21, until someone wrote something a little better. Surely a bit simplistic, but simple can be good in situations like this.


1 lb silver for each book, which is 0.1 p.v.f. apiece, yes. However, that is per book, and some are actually a collection of a number of books. So do double-check the notes on the right. Still, overall they're quite inexpensive compared to Hermetic books.

I was looking at the published books, as well as the skills in the Core Book. It seems that there is a music skill, but music is part of Artes Liberales. My character is going to be a singer, who composes songs on the fly. Since he is composing the songs, would learning music under Artes Liberales go directly under his music skill, or be a bonus to music skill?

And purchasing things at Harco is definitely going to be interesting. Getting Covenants together, then purchasing books and other supplies for the covenant would seem to be the way to go.  My question about that concerns timing. How much are we going to know about our potential covenant site, before we make our purchases?

Music under Artes Libearales is music theory. Stuff about strings and notes' relation to each other, octaves and such. Music ability includes singing or playing an instrument well.

That part of AL is more of music theory and the like as opposed to performance and composition. In the core book Music is the Ability for singing, playing instruments, and composing, and this is reiterated elsewhere. This is what the core book says about the music part of AL:



Yes. That's why I wanted to get covenants sorted out a bit first. Once we've decided groups, I'm going to give a bunch of sites. For simplicity, they'll all have Magic Auras of 5. They'll have some other Boons/Hooks, and some room for some group decisions. You won't know what the vis sources are until you get there and explore, though. And generally speaking there is no building yet.

Did someone have a spreadsheet for calculating book costs?

Puissant MT Doesn't increase the Vis you can use because the Vis Limit is not actually a total? Trying to assign my last virtue point.

The vis limit is a total, even if it isn't labeled "total." More importantly, it is an actual use of Magic Theory.

From the errata:


So not I guess it's a bit up in the air of your score is with ot without the 2+2 from Puissant.

Some thoughts / questions on economics.  We're starting from scratch, and while we can buy silver, and some ready cash will be handy, more easily transportable, and tradeable, commodities will come in handy.

The "classic" response is Touch of Midas, but that's basically an open invitation to robbery, social destabilization, and sundry evil shenanigans by whoever is running the story.  The basic principle is sound, however.

What do people think about a modified version, making a valuable, but less attention-getting commodity?  Salt is a good pick, as a CrTe two-three levels lower (depending on whether you rate salt as stone or base metal) than ToM makes about a cubic yard, which is about a ton of Platonically perfect salt.  Salt is valuable, but is commonly traded in bulk, and is MUCH less attention-getting than pure gold.  CrHe equivalents to make spices (saffron, pepper, cloves) are also good options.  If we're setting up one covenant (conveniently, the one my Magi is in) in a coastal city / Mercere base, trading opportunities shouldn't be too hard.

I figured I should check in with the group, however, on how much of this kind of thing we want to pursue. I'm game to "sacrifice" a few of my starting spell levels for the cause, but don't want to upset any apple carts.  Any thoughts?

FMB

The idea there is that it doesn't matter if it's a total. The question is if you're using the Ability. You are in this case. So the Ability counts as 2 higher and you can work with more vis in a season.

In reply to Player 16 (msg # 239):

In a coastal area you can get salt via Rego without spending vis.

It's here: https://docs.google.com/spread...Phs/edit?usp=sharing

Was thinking that my Demonic Blood Companion could have a Decrepitude transferring power. It would technically allow him and anyone else to live forever (you would eventually have to deal with a terminal aging crisis every winter but you'd still be kicking)? That is how shucking off Decrepitude would actually resolve?

It would be pretty unambiguously evil since you are eventually sapping decades off of other people every year (or dumping them into cancer patients or something) in an act of pure selfishness.

Otherwise I figure he would be a capable field agent. A sneaky knife in the dark type.

Technically there is nothing stopping him from being a Redcap? Maybe a misguided Mercer making deals with the devil for off spring. Can't take Demonic Blood and a Story Flaw for having a Gifted Twin out there or his parents needing to send him away to Africa. But Tragic Life sort of covers the whole gamut...


@MT IMMA just going to saddle this gift horse and ride into the distance.

@$cashmoney$ I was just going to magically fill a chest with silver coins. I didn't drag this fortress out of the ground and fill it with magi and bound spirits so it would be so darn easy to rob.

It's low enough level that you can probably spont it without spending fatigue (ReAq 4)
Details in TME, p. 129

Sorry if it's a dumb question, but how do I add the profile of a character?

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 245):

character detail top left, view profile of (name) and then edit description is how I did it, might be a better way
This message was last updated by the player at 21:53, Fri 26 Feb 2021.

In reply to Player 16 (msg # 239):

Fun part is that most of Europe's gold comes from parts unknown Africa. Perhaps mined by giant ant people, perhaps from King Solomon's mines. Facts are, if we are going to unload gold for goods, we are in the right place to do it, while attracting the least attention.

One of the Character generation rules is that no starting character can have Might, and Demonic Blood grants Infernal Might of 5. Now, our Alpha SG may allow an exception.

Assuming you did have a Decrepitude transferring power, and you chose to forgo a Longevity Ritual, yes, every year you'd get an aging crisis, and some stat declines, but you'd stay alive. This is going to pick up Warping, both from restoring stats and from mitigating crises, unless you cast them on yourself.

Note that if you had say, a Decrepitude score of 3 (30 aging points) and you get 22+ on the roll, you just picked up 20 Aging points, which is going to cause several stat declines.

For my companion I'm thinking I might do a Pawnbroker-style Redcap from the Roman Tribunal. Heavily interested in finding new sources of vis to ship back to the Roman, Alps, and Rhine Tribunals where he can earn higher rates of return (Assumption being this is hopefully a vis-rich area and so there will be less incentive to trade vis, I'm aware that the rate is likely standardized so # of trades is where the profit is). I'll probably give him Second Sight and Magic Sensitivity, snag magic items that give him more detailed info on the vis he finds (art, for instance) and move from one physical object to another. If this steps on the toes of anyone's character idea, let me know.

I have a couple of ideas for a Companion. Before I get into that, who is planning on playing a Redcap, and what kind of Redcap?

@no might

That would tear it. Everything else is no concern for him. Only a problem for other people. I was pretty sure you didn't gain the state losses when your Score just jumped artificially. Just like I don't think you would gain stats if you vented the decrepitude.

Was losses from aging in the stat boosting clause of the house rules?

It's pretty unambiguously evil as coming from a purely Infernal source. You actually have a way round hurting people, though. That's a scary combo with someone who might want to volunteer to receive it as a member of Cult of Dedun (that's what I've used to build the ex Misc tradition... if one parens and one student qualifies as a tradition). If you haven't seen, go look in Lands of the Nile at Unnatural Vitality at the bottom of page 100. I had realized that would be a great combination; I just never expected it might show up.

Give me a character name. I'll give you a new character with that name. Then go to Character Details in the upper left. Then look on the right for the list of characters you have access to. Choose the one you want. Then create or edit the sheet.

Oh, sorry. Did you mean the description available to everyone or the character sheet? For the description do what was mentioned above. Then everyone can see it in The Cast. I tend to include pictures in there, too.
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:48, Fri 26 Feb 2021.

Yes, and I like that rule.

When your score drops from Aging Points, you lose those Aging Points. So you can perfectly repair the loss with CrCo or CrMe. Boosting while you have the Aging Points doesn't remove them, though.

Within the game logic, of course it's unambiguous. But for weather it's actually bad, it's pretty bad.

Is acknowledging the idea permission to go ahead with it despite having Might from a virtue?

I suppose it is technically buildable without Demonic blood... Just never dove into those numbers. I suppose Warping doesn't actually matter for mundanes. They can just keep using magic to fix their magic cancer ad infinitum.

Warping is horrible for mundanes. They get a minor flaw at 1, a second minor flaw at 3 and a minor virtue at 5. At 6+, it's a major flaw at each new level.  There's some caveats, see core p. 168.

I know very well what it does. But it ultimately doesn't matter that much. You go blind, get magic eyes. crippled, get magic legs. So long as you are useful to magi they can keep you going. You don't really have to worry about getting more warping because after 4 or so major flaws it's going to be life times before you get another one.

Theoretically you could get something really bad and have to get a Garuguch to turn the flaw off for you. But it's just another constant magic effect.

Also, if you have the right magus buddy (one you're keeping young), then they might make versions of those boosting spells tailored to you so you wouldn't get a Warping Point each time.

Without Might taking Unaging is an obvious pick.

Yes, that will do it, preventing those losses.

I did feel like almost everyone was 'willing' to play a redcap if we needed them, but how many confirmed?

I was thinking it'd be fun to play one, interact with all sorts of different Magi. Probably an older one guiding the youngers, training new ones, that sort of thing.  That or I was going to play my benevolent former Crusader.

I noticed in the spell threads, that you're allowing a temporary-duration spring to create a non-temporary water.  Do you also allow conjured rain to create permanent water? Inquiring desert farmers want to know!

In reply to Player 15 (msg # 263):

In the CrAq description, it specifically states that the conjured water quenches thirst, and that used for cleaning etc, it produces clean things.  Also indicates that you can conjure water in "odd" shapes (they reference a globe above someone's head), but that once it exists it acts like water.

Not sure what would happen with rain, but my sense is that as long as the spell lasts, the water is there, and would accumulate, soak it the ground, be absorbed, etc.  You could probably water crops, but I don't know if you could fill a cistern, and have the water "stay", beyond the duration of the spell.  My intent with the spell is you could conjure a spring, and drink from it, but not necessarily fill up your water skins, etc. (unless you drank them before sunrise/set?).

Curious what the Alpha thinks on this.

Thirst would be quenched by temp water and obviously things would be cleaned by it (and dry instantly on the end of the spell). You would just still die of thirst after the fact.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 265):

Okay, I'm a little confused.  On what basis can one argue you'd die of thirst, given that the guidelines specifically indicate it quenches thirst?  Note, this is distinct from the guidelines for, say, Herbam.  There, the guidelines specifically indicate that non-ritual food isn't nourishing, but for Aquam, it specifically indicates it is thirst quenching.

FMB
This message was last edited by the player at 03:17, Sat 27 Feb 2021.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 265):

Pretty sure they had a good idea that water went in and out of the body pretty quick. No idea if you could water plants with it but moon duration water could probably be safe for human consumption long as you drank non-temporary water in the last day or two of the moon cycle, especially in a dry climate. Would be a way to vastly extend supplies during droughts.

Definitely want someone with a good or neutral tasting sigil to create your springs though.

Callen, I've been glancing around at some possible site ideas in northern Algeria since that seems the area the Hedge Integration covenant kind of needs to be to satisfy a bunch of our interests (Near the Vandal Kingdom's territory, near the desert, near berber settlements). And found some interesting roman ruins but I'm not sure if you want suggestion ideas or not or if you have some other criteria for sites you're choosing/creating. Anyway, I won't say I did "deep research" or anything but if suggestions would be useful let us know.

Specifically:

 Thirsty vs. Hydrated and Filling vs. Nourishing. Does that put it simply? Like I could chug sea water to quench my thirst but I would be dehydrating myself. Good in the moment just not long term.

P.S. Sun duration food to have epic feasts with no weight gain. "Eat up lads the only thing real is the kale!"

Ninja'd

My interpretation is that CrAq can create a water spring.  The water spring will eventually disappear if it's not a momentary ritual.  A created horse poops during its transient existence, so water from a magically created spring exists beyond the lifetime of the spring.

If you had just flat-out created water, yes, you would be in trouble at expiration. But you didn't, you created a spring.

I'm currently leaning towards a Tremere or Trianoma with Gossip and a bunch of social skills. not sure if I'll be playing Teacher yet. If I'm not at the Redcap covenant, I'll be trying to keep VERY good relations with them, and maybe get a redcap at my home too.

We probably also have enough people for an additional covenant option. Perhaps one specifically dedicated to studying a magical region or defending a european stronghold/city left over from crusaders.

Does a Temporary horse leave real poop?  Does a temporary adder inject venom that can be milked long term? Does a temporary spring/storm produce permanent water? If I turn a rock into a sheep and shear its wool, can I make a sweater?

I'm not trying to be facetious here, I totally want to know as I begin planning my spells.

In reply to Player 15 (msg # 273):

Pretty sure the sheep’s wool would disappear at the end of the spell’s duration. The poop of a horse would be an effect the horse left on the food it ate and the manure would stay.

Another issue is it does not just dig a hole, it creates the water. Note the similar guidelines:
Level 5:  Create a spring with a high rate of flow.
Level 10: Create a geyser with a very high rate of flow.

The second guideline is used for mighty torrent of water but could also be used to create permanent geyser.
This message was last edited by the player at 05:13, Sat 27 Feb 2021.

A horse is a machine that turns grass into poop. Real food real poop. Everything else, yes it should disappear.

Does real fire fed by magic wood need to penetrate. A far more interesting argument. Heavyweight stuff.

Is anyone making a character with the good teacher virtue? Is the teacher a mage or mundane?

This more or less lines up with my thinking.  When you conjure, you create a thing, which is distinct, and in the medieval paradigm, platonic, distinct, and ideal in itself.  A spring is distinct from water.  A spring is a thing which produces water - in the same way that a storm created with CrAu is a thing that produces water.  In both cases, the magical thing you make goes away, but the water it created does not.

Thinking about it, I can see a spring needing some kind of requisite, probably Te, as it's from the ground, but it's not just the same as conjuring water.

In reply to Jaegar of Merinita (msg # 276):


I keep thinking about switching subtle magic for good teacher - I want Iapetus to have extensive correspondence on health related issues, and to be a writer.  Haven't pulled the trigger yet, though.  The subtle magic is important to how I see him using his magic - as a complement to his mundane medical skills (at least at this point).

FMB

In reply to Jaegar of Merinita (msg # 276):

I'm making a Bjornaer Ilfetu with a Good Teacher. What do you have in mind?

In reply to Player 16 (msg # 278):

Have you considered taking Performance Magic?

Yeah, but my understanding of PM is that it works as a "cover" for casting, rather than a complement.  So, it looks like he's doing doctor stuff, but actually doing magic (and that's assuming medicine or chirurgy would qualify, as they're not on the list).  My sense is that it would be similar to how PM interacts with combat, where actually doing doctor stuff at the same time would require a stress roll, which I'd like to avoid if I can.

With subtle, he can bind a wound, or examine the humors, or whatever, and then mutter a bunch of esoteric latin, which most patients wouldn't understand anyways, and not only does the wound stop bleeding etc, but the patient gets a solid bonus to recovery.

It's a good idea, but I'm not sure it's the best application of PM in practice.

FMB

By all means, mention them. I've got ideas, but more could only help.


If you feed it real food, yes, it leaves real poop and a real corpse. But the created horse left alone would not.

So for the temporary magic thing to create something real, it really needs to be altering something real (real food -> real dung, enough real food -> real corpse). So you have to examine if the created thing is altering something real or providing something entirely from itself. So...


This sounds correct. You can do this in the middle of the desert even if there is no source of water to tap nearby. You could probably use the same guideline for a similar spell that makes a spring from groundwater, which would only work if there were significant groundwater but which would also provide real water since it's really just gathering existing water.


I expect so. It's a good way to add value, and it allows for a lot of goals outside of that. While I won't, my planned companion could provide that Virtue; though as writing is long-term, you'd get a little Warping.


Nice idea. Performance Magic (Medical Practice) wouldn't provide you everything from Quiet/Subtle Magic, but for a single Virtue it would let you do a ton of healing stuff while covering both of those, sort of like how Deft (Form) works. Deft Corpus is another thing that might handle the situation well.
This message was last edited by the GM at 14:23, Sat 27 Feb 2021.

In reply to Jaegar of Merinita (msg # 276):

Salma ex Misc will have good teacher. Seems almost necessary for Lineage of Pralix what with their high likelihood to be teaching folks.

EDIT: I am also likely to give grogs Good Teacher but my companion will not have it unless I change companion ideas.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:11, Sat 27 Feb 2021.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 282):

Tiddis seemed the most interesting but Timgad did as well. Both are Roman ruins. Not a specific site (there are a number and I can’t remeber any specific names) but for some reason some of the Salt lakes seem interesting and well placed for us though might be difficult to grow anything there.

I was asked about Personal Vis Source above. I finally found the thing in the core book I wanted (page 218). Typical is 10 per year per magus. We'll start lower but might end up higher, so that's probably a good estimate. So Personal Vis source suggests a number matching the average number of magi in a covenant, which looks to be 4 (16 magi, 4 covenants) at the moment, and needn't be adjusted later. So 4 Form vis per year is good. My 3:2 ratio doesn't fit that beautifully. But if you come up with a good split source, you could do 2 Technique + 1 Form vis per year.

Can you all create/edit character sheets? (Not the character description in The Cast, but the character sheet in Character Details.) I think I have it set right, but I cannot view as a non-GM to confirm.

this is what I'm seeing under character details:
Character Name : Salma ex Miscellanea
Tag : Maga
# of Posts : 7
Biography pt 1 :
Biography pt 2 :
Change Biography

View or Edit Description
Select a Portrait
---end copy/paste---
There are links for Biography, View (Description), Edit (Description) and Portrait. Most folks seem to just be entering their sheets in the description.

Great. It's there now.

I think the problem was that I had to create a blank one.

I moved my character to the character sheet.

If we're allowed to create however many grogs we want, it gets incredibly easy to ensure good teachers.  I see Good Teacher more often than Great Communication, and with good reason. That virtue is too good.
PS, I will bribe all your good teacher grogs to move in with me. Join us....

As an aside, I could EASILY throw good teacher onto my current magi ideas, but I'm avoiding it unless I run out of good ideas.  Unless people want to congregate with my character and try to recreate the Library of Alexandria in Triploli.

Yes, we certainly could have a Library covenant as well. No problem with a 5th. We have enough magi.

As for Good Teacher, it does tend to be popular. Of course, it can be wasteful for those who don't want to write much. But maybe I should cap grogs? I didn't really want to, figuring if you go through the effort of writing up 10 grogs and keeping up with them, it will flesh out the covenant more and you deserve a reward. But if they become copy-paste versions of each other just to get 10 Good Teachers in a feeding frenzy, then it's a problem.

How does building penetration into casting tablets work? Specifically how does it affect level of the effect w/r/t casting and is it 1 lvl:1 Pen or 1:2 like items?

The first part, if I have an Aegis tablet of effect level 30 with 30 Penetration built in do I need to use 60 as the spell level for the casting table or just the 30?

The second part, would the tablet described above be level 60 or level 45?

Population is a huge issue for covenants and having "unlimited grogs" is a potential destabilizing issue. I have no issue sitting for a few hours and making my entire covenant's turb of grogs, milk maids, glass blowers, etc. Having a bunch of grogs who are interest in serving me under the promise that if I unlock magic I will gift it to them or their children would be very useful to me.

The tablet level is 60.

FYI I just reread that last post of mine. Too many repeated words. I apologize for my poor composition. I'd judge me if I were you.

In reply to Alpha SG (msg # 295):

Hold up.

Wouldn't the Tablet level be 45?

30 for the actual level of the Aegis and 15 for the built-in penetration, as each level invested into penetration, gives you 2 points of penetration? Whats would be the point of such high penetration since the base level couldn't repel anything with might higher than 30?
This message was last edited by the player at 20:00, Sat 27 Feb 2021.

In reply to Player 3 (msg # 297):

It is unclear in the wording of Casting Tablets and Alpha has determined that it is 1 level per +1 to Pen.

If we do have a library covenant, I do NOT suggest everyone with Good Teacher move there. I think it'll be a better story if I have to come to you and get your books.  The Library covenant would be seeking local knowledge, not trying to build a library.

Like P#4, I could also sit down and write up stats for an entire covenant worth of people that will make Covenant finances and population more reasonable.  Plus, does every covenfolk need stats? You could max it at 2-3 grogs and a number of non-statted ancilliaries such as milkmaids, cooks, and servants and hairdressers.

PS, everyone who has not decided on a final character yet, come play a Tremere voting block with me in the library.

In reply to Player 3 (msg # 297):

It's spell-casting penetration, isn't it? A casting tablet is not an item shooting out an effect. It's a casting total that you try to match

As for the rule on making grogs, that's actually straight out of the core book. Any grog you write up you don't need to pay for.

That would be pretty cool.

I looked at RoP:I and I don't think I actually can manage to have a character that just uses an Infernal 'Trick' to do stuff without picking up Infernal Might (Even on an item).  So I would have to build a full Infernal sorcerer, which is not allowed. So it's back to the drawing board on that.

Wait, I get to determine the grogs abilities and virtues AND I don't have to feed them? Time to get writing apparently.

Is anyone else at the Fortress of martial bent or did we pick up a verditius? Touched my magic crafter that makes "guns" (vinny's sling bullet shooters) wielded by our turb. But I would rather not be attached to my own magus. I guess I can get the whole Finesse based Utopia out of the way in the process.

You still have to feed them. They just don't cost BP when you're building a covenant using the BP method.

It would be best to limit the number of grogs for each player. while 3 is the number in the corebook, since we're newcomers, and will need to gather local folk for covenfolk, which might make it a bit harder, we could up it to max 5-6 per Magus. It will give enough variety, but not allow each covenant to fill all of the roles right off the gate.

In reply to Player 3 (msg # 279):

One of the things my character needs to do (for long term goals) is learn how to teach. If he learns this from someone with Good Teacher, he will max out his ability to teach pretty quickly. So he would be keeping his ears open when we meet at Harco for anyone with that virtue.

We can certainly put a cap on the grogs. Maybe we make it by covenant rather than by magus so a covenant with two Gifted magi doesn't get severely restricted compared to one with four or five Gifted magi?

Someone, can’t remember who at the moment, mentioned taking the Levant tribunal as inspiration for our peripheral code.
I understood it as being primarily about the random selection of tribunal positions.

What are the general thoughts about this?

My character, being from the Rhine tribunal, is all for anything other than the Rhine setup and would support something similar to the Levant solution.

Thebes, not Levant, but it was me, aka Salma ex Miscellanea. Definitely don't want to base us on the "structure" of Levant Tribunal.

The "magistrate lottery" (not what they call it) is a cool feature, I think. I also think it makes a lot of sense for us with our ages being relatively similar as viewed by The Order, years since Gauntlet.

The tokens and shards are very interesting and important too, as is the fact that their peripheral code is codified and written in plain and clear language, not merely determined ad hoc by legal precedent.

Obviously I like this idea but I like the idea of determining this, or at least pushing for it, before and at our first Tribunal. I do think it would be interesting if some folks were known to support these ideas and Salma would be known to support them.

I'm Theban too. Not sure what he thinks of tokens and shards. I think it is too soon to tell what pressures will drive what behaviors. If we face a lot of opposition we will need firm executive power to survive in the region and the selection of that executive will be important. If Something else is out united problem then we will have to address it that way.

The only thing I want to drive legally is an eye for an eye approach to unintended spell use. If I hurt you I have to heal you, etc. Specifically With scrying. I want to have panopticon surveillance for detecting the gift and possibly mighty creatures and the penalty for pinging y'all with it only being you get to see if I have the Gift would be really convenient.

Overall I think your Code is going to end up focusing more on mutual defense and things we could not get from neighboring tribunals so that we don't start losing covenants to our neighbors.

In reply to Brontion ex Guernicus (msg # 310):

I can guarantee that the Proud, Driven Tytalus magi is going to have issues with being "pinged" by a johnny-come-lately Guernican, we don't drag ourselves out to the back of beyond to be randomly surveilled by some self-appointed guardian of the code, thank you very much ;)

He's likely to go out of his way to cause trouble for those who ping him.  Bribery is acceptable, as always, of course. ;)

FMB

In reply to Player 16 (msg # 311):

I actually don't know how it resolves legally if a mundane uses a magic item built by a magus on another magus. Like the grog doesn't have rights beyond being our servants. But they also haven't sworn an oath against scrying. If they are under specific orders to never tell us details of other magi then you can hardly say I ordered my minions to scry on you.

In short there is no reason the order cannot detect and acquire every Gifted soul in Europe other than negligence and prissyness about scrying.

In regards to the Peripheral Code, I think that it would be interesting to do as an IC thing. We come from different backgrounds, and different Tribunals, and we might not even all have a common language, mainly since Thebes uses Ancient Greek instead of Latin to teach Magic.

But the point of it being, that doing this IC, as the first Tribunal, will also let us establish relations both between characters, and between Covenants, and set the tone for that for the game.

In reply to Brontion ex Guernicus (msg # 312):

As, previously, being the character to most likely break the no scrying rule due to certain factors of my lineage. I am totally against this plan. Not down with a surveillance state... are you sure you're from the Theban Tribunal?

But I would say that "scrying" to find out if someone has the gift is usually not an issue as it is ignored but knowing where members of the order are at any given time is a whole lot more than that.

Who said anything about that, I want to find apprentices and Gifted Hedgies. I only care where you jokers are so that I don't accidentally get charges brought against me for blowing you up with a volcano or something. But it's illegal to fucking check with magic!

I'm far more worried about thieves from Levant grabbing vis sources that are within our boarders. If we have weak laws on scrying and strong ones on theft then I'm clear to monitor the sites.

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 313):

Down with the IC Tribunal plan.  Also, regardless of result, can guarantee that Iapetus will be dissecting any grog he catches spying him, and ashing the remains.  The parts left over, I mean.

FMB

Attrition is expected...

And ya, we need to do it IC. Doing it before we even start is just legal wank that no one would support IC. It will take social and environmental pressures actually drive a set of laws.

Maybe the only thing we should try is having meetings be more common in the opening years. Maybe the covenant leaders meet once a year to discuss needs and threats in a Skype ReIm call.

Alpha, what in your view are reasonable Area Lores?

Specifically, Salma spent her childhood among a Tuareg Tribe is Area Lore: The Great Desert acceptable? Western great Desert? Central Great Desert? or smaller than that? I'm taking a specialty in Legends as she grew up listening to the folk tales of her people.

Yes, I expect a lot of this to end up being IC wheeling and dealing, which should be fun as long as we make sure it doesn't go on too long.


You can go as broad or narrow as you want. The broader it is, the less detailed it is; or, the narrower it is, the more detailed it is. For things like legends, broad will probably serve you well. Consider Alexandria. "Africa" would let you know where it is, what country it's in, the major routes into and out of it, some major details, etc. "Egypt" would let you know all that plus all the water and land routes into and out of it, how it relates to the rest of Egypt politically, etc. "Alexandria" would let you know about the various streets inside of it, vendors, magistrates, etc.

I need a bit of a clarification on this:

At the beginning of the Costs it talks about the cost of Ritual spells, and a ReVi20 (+20 Penetration) costs, if I go by the calculation 9 p.v.f
But later, it says a Casting Tablet costs twice the cost of a lab text, and that would come up as 2.8 p.v.f

This is all assuming I should treat it as a Magnitude 8 spell.

But I'd like to know which of the calculations is the correct one, and I'm sure it could be relevant to others as well.

I assumed the cost of ritual spells was the cost for getting a person to cast it for you, on you, whatever, so that you don’t need to invent or cast it yourself or risk casting it from a casting tablet. Not the cost of a lab text for a ritual spell.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:45, Sun 28 Feb 2021.

Almost certainly this, ya.

Sorry, I should clarify. That's to pay for a Ritual being cast, not to buy a text nor a tablet.

Being a Christian in North-Africa cannot have been easy.
I suggest everyone read up a bit on the matter as I assume we'll have quite a few European Christians among the magi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...tatus_of_non-Muslims

Just a suggestion, can we call this the Maghreb Tribunal?

The Maghreb refers to the western part of North Africa.

In reply to Player 9 (msg # 324):

Keep a low profile, pay the tax, donate money to local religious charities.  Work on good relationships with the neighbors.  Live in a fortifiable building for when the inevitable angry mob shows up.

In reply to Macrinus ex Tytalus (msg # 325):

Possible Tribunal Names:

Maghreb
Carthage

I think I'd prefer Carthage to Maghreb. Though it could be a sore point to the Roman Tribunal...

Carthago delenda est.

I like both, but if/when the vote comes I’ll go for Maghreb.

Ifriqiya is another possibility.

Carthaginian Tribunal...I love it!

Seems like the most fitting name for a bunch of Roman cosplayers don't you think?
This message was last edited by the player at 13:09, Sun 28 Feb 2021.

Why would we use the name of the enemies of Rome? Africa (Arabicized to Ifriqiya) and Numidia were two Roman provice names on this side of the Mediterranean.

In reply to Player 13 (msg # 331):

Maybe because using a Roman Province name might suggest that we're subservient to the Roman Tribunal?

In reply to Arnaldo ex Criamon (msg # 332):

Carthage. Says we are independent, historical, and implies that we intend to be both great, and mercantile. Sounds like a good start!

In reply to Jaegar of Merinita (msg # 333):

Seconding this

As people create companions, send names along to me. If you don't have a location in mind, you might cast about to see where the character might be found most useful or fit in the best. As for Redcaps, I'd say if you definitely want to play one, do so; meanwhile, if you were just willing to do so to make sure it's covered, don't, because we have plenty who specifically want to.

Say Cal, I had a question.

The Apprentices book gives mechanics to teaching Hermetic Virtues (pages 40-42). The difficulty of this task depends on the number (and category) of Virtues the character already has. So...could our magi still teach each other virtues, are these rules still applicable?

In reply to Corvus ex Bjornaer (msg # 336):

Yes, theoretically that could be done.

Just want to confirm, we have personal lab texts for the spells we know, correct? As in they are in our personal shorthand/code and need to be transcribed for clarity to make them useful to other magi.

In reply to Player 13 (msg # 338):

Yes. I don't see why a parens, with their own copies already, would not let you take your lab texts in your personal short hand with you. So everyone has untranslated lab texts for any spells they know.