And the ability to issue orders is the only form of political power in your mind? Interesting, very interesting.

Mhmm, exactly! In the other Tribunals, there are few pressures towards useful cooperation and many against.

In some Tribunals, resources are flush, eliminating the need to cooperate or materially fail. Even with magic, the new tribunal is almost uniquely hostile to [hermetic] life. We may well face challenges as individual covenants that we're just not able to handle, and we won't have the major backing of resources coming from the Order at large, there IS no infrastructure to help us out here.

In other small Tribunals, there are long held political and personal histories involved that make it difficult to earnestly co-operate, ultimately holding back the potential of the Order by bogging the advancement of those Tribunals down with centuries long slights and counter-slights. That doesn't apply (as  much) because we're all plucked basically from apprenticeship and tossed together to go out create covenants de novo!

Each of the new covenants will survive better if we quickly work out how to support one another through differing regional challenges, and further we all share a goal of proving ourselves as a group every Grand Tribunal.

This is the sense that Klaudios, as a Bonisagus and given his background/goals has.

Also, it sort of seems like the covenants are already organized more or less along apt lines for this kind of scheme: The mercer house is obvious, but a case can easily be made for why each of the other covenants is of value to all - provided they share their resources, insights, or other unique points of value.

 The Hedge covenant helps alleviate threats from external traditions, and can make us potentially valuable to the rest of the Order via the expansion of Magic Theory in the long run. The outpost covenants have a scouting, protection, and (given the chatter earlier on about this) travel/communication benefit to all. So on. Sort of like Theban shards, but on the level of the whole covenant and not [just?] given individuals.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:41, Mon 15 Mar 2021.

In reply to Player 2 (msg # 702):

Rather than tokens/shards, it is more like the stated purposes of covenants necessary in Thebes to found a covenant in the first place, which Salma brought up. Individuals at those covenants might earn tokens for performing the actions that fall within their covenant’s purpose, for instance healing or producing longevity rituals for those at Epidauros (the one at the temple of Aesclepius) or training and keeping pre-apprentice gifted children safe at Polyaigos.

No. Do what you will. I don't really have an oar in this discussion. I just know how Leander will respond.

The Latin for Aye and Nay was probably Sic and Non, right? Anyone's Latin better than mine.

there are lots of idiomatic problems generally, but we don't translate everything into Latin anyway so I always figure it's safe to assume there's some Latin version of any idiom we feel like using.

Ya, I don't mind it necessarily, but if we bother to say 'salve sodales' it seemed like having Latin yay and nay would be thematic.

If you think about idioms the Order would have an almost completely unrecognizable Latin dialect from the rest of Europe. Like we were all essentially raised by a member of the order, we would have picked up their accent and idioms and they from their parens and on and on with very little outside influence in any of our formative years. The culture would evolve really fast under those circumstances.

This tribunal is pretty flush with resources, just looking at the resources we have available to us.  However, the mundane politics are particularly harsh against us, and the magical landscape will view (almost) all of us as interlopers and foreigners.

I have no idea how much we actually could get decided as far as rules and Tribunal stuff in this meeting, especially with inconsistant posting times and no formal chairperson.  Either way, Vespera is going to be writing lots of letters to people during our setup time!

Not much of anything is my guess.

But with proper preperation I think we'll get several full proposals when we meet in 1221 and then firly quickly can vote on the proposals so that 1221 will not be a chaotic mess like this.

I did a quick count.
Aa far as having the redcaps choose one of their own to chair the 2021 tribunal at the Mercere house we have a simple majority.

      Andre ex Miscellanea
Aye Appolonius of Flambeau
Aye Arnaldo ex Criamon
Aye Baqir Al-Andalus
Aye Brontion ex Guernicus
      Corvus ex Bjornaer
Aye Iapetus of Rennes, Magus of Tytalus
Aye Jaegar of Merinita
      Klaudios Bonisagi
      Leander ex Flambeau
Aye Longinus ex Merinita
Aye Macrinus ex Tytalus
Aye Malik ex Verditius
Aye Malleus ex Verditius
Nay Salma ex Miscellanea
Aye Vespera of Tremere
      Zahrah min bayt Miscellanea

Vespera was against everyone having do decide on a covenant, so that issue is still up in the air.

EDIT TO ADD: Updated with Iapetus, Malik
This message was last edited by the player at 13:33, Tue 16 Mar 2021.

Thank you 9,   I was thinking to have to go an count myself.  I appreciate your effort.

I did not take this to shut down our wanderers. They are a 'covenant' of their own or each is a 'covenant' of an individual. Really just knowing where everyone's mail is to be delivered.

Right, that was the intent.

Are you considered to have voted on your own motion?

The proposal was to have the redcaps choose, not to choose one amongst themselves, that part was added by Malik. Ugh! You can’t decide so you force the players of redcaps to decide. Super annoying, y’all.

By actual rules of order, no. You can make a motion and second it just so there is debate and a vote. Forcing the Move and the Second to vote for their own motion would mean motions have to be Aye-positive and that people are not allowed to change their mind, defeating the purpose of debate.

Here? Who knows? There are implied things happening in the background. We don't have officers or anything tallying votes IC or maintaining order. If you want it to be an Aye you can say it here and no one will fault you probably, or put it in IC.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 715):

Technically our Guernicus was tasked by Alexios ex Guernicas to ensure that everything is conducted properly. So I suppose that IC it would be his job.

I’m loving the anachronism of modern parliamentary procedure.

Let's just follow the procedures of the roman senate. ;)

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Senate_procedures

Actually not a bad idea for when we need real produre at next meeting.
This message was last updated by the player at 13:53, Tue 16 Mar 2021.

Yeah I thought that was a bit funky as well. The Roman Senate [and most other deliberative bodies afaik] had fairly formal rules, but nowhere near as codified as Rules of Order (Roberts, parliamentary, or otherwise). More a body of practices like the peripheral code, a pack of traditions and customs tied up in the organizational culture.

Suing people into exile when their term is over, backed up by the occasional stabbing?

I vote no on that one ;)

FMB
This message was last edited by the player at 14:01, Tue 16 Mar 2021.

Certainly Klaudios will only propose plans that he earnestly supports (at the time anyways) and won't bother to formally vote for them as well unless prompted, hah

Since we are forming something brand new, going back to old Roman ways of doing things would be interesting. I may write up some ideas of how to put this into practice, but here is the first idea:
1) Elect two consuls. They have to be from different covenants, and each can veto the other, but they preside for the time between tribunals, and can call emergency Tribunals.
2) The Praetorship belongs to the head Guernicus of the Tribunal, who can also call emergency Tribunal meetings.
3) We vote and debate like Senators, and can seek evidence from non-senators.

It is the beginning of an idea.

In reply to Player 8 (msg # 723):

I like ideas.
Lets just try to avoid events like the one that went down on yesterday's date.
Assassinations on the senate floor are so messy.

If I could internalize Aristotelian physics I can certainly manage to figure out a new set of parliamentary procedures.

Like I said before a forum is actually a pretty good place to hold a forum. We were just trying to make the 0th meeting something it wasn't. Like there was literally no actual way for us to conduct business properly.