I'm changing this answer.  Since Undine is only 7 RP, let's just add amphibious to the base.  No need to take the alternate racial trait nor use up a feat.

In reply to Zag (msg # 9):

The Fey type provides low-light vision for free (normally 1RP), but the hidden benefit is that it makes the character completely immune to anything that specifically targets Humanoids (such as hold person or charm person, plus some other somewhat annoying effects); plus it makes her eligible for Nereid Fascination or Hydrated Vitality, which humanoids normally are not.

Child of Two Worlds doesn't (officially) work as you think it does, unless you assume the character has already completed the story goal, which is meant to be a major roleplaying adventure. The final benefits of Story feats are insanely overpowered (by intention) to make up for this cost; Child of Two Worlds is one of the most reasonable ones!

Are we going to have to sleep underwater, for multiple days at a time? That makes things way harder. Water breathing lasts for 2 hours / level split among targets, and is still eligible for use with a lesser rod of metamagic, extend (which is an auto-buy for any spellcaster with long-term buffs, at the same time all the martial characters are buying +1 weapons); i.e. MUCH longer than a typical adventuring day, even for two targets, even at only 5th level (and I would get it at CL 6th anyway because it comes from the Water domain, unless I accidentally take a subdomain that replaces it).

It's probably not necessary to plan for multiple days at a time, but some full days might be necessary.  We'll have to see what sorts of characters Colin and Leah come up with, but if they have full water-breathing types, let's go ahead and find a way to make Kayla's fully amphibious, as well.

Trying to make my character. Is it assumed that we'll drop our assorted non-combat items (bedrolls, ropes, pots, &c) if it seems like combat is likely? For non-Strength-based characters, encumbrance limits are very... limiting; at Strength 10 I basically can't wear my ice armor and carry my stuff at the same time (I can just barely, but it puts me deep into Heavy encumbrance). At Strength 8 I couldn't wear ice armor at all!

You can assume that, but if you have to flee, you'll be leaving it behind.
Foreshadowing

Might I interest you in some Muleback cords?

I'm definitely not spending 2/3 of my starting wealth on a single item that doesn't even really solve the problem, just puts it off. There isn't anything very valuable in my backpack anyway, so if it gets lost, I don't actually care. I can wait until a handy haversack is a trivial cost.

I would like to ask that each party member be ready to pony up 150g for their share of a wand of cure light wounds. Never leave home without it! I would just buy it myself (since as a cleric I have fairly limited non-magical equipment needs, and we can't afford most magical equipment) but after my fancy masterwork weapon and shield I can't quite afford it.

You can ask the players to reserve that much, and plan to buy it later.  However, the PCs will not get together until the initial scenario, so you won't have it purchased, yet.

All right, I think I have my character worked out. I've put it in my Character details. Normally I would take Scribe Scroll as a prepared caster (Wizards get it for free but all prepared casters want it), but I realized that scrolls might be a bit inconvenient underwater! If you rule that there's still a way for scrolls to be useful in this campaign I'm definitely switching Combat Casting for it, and spending about 150-200gp scribing some scrolls for myself.

Yes, there is the underwater equivalent of scrolls (and spellbooks).  They are etched on shells, which you can string on a rope and wear as a bandolier.

The sheet looks fine.  You don't show the 'Because the ice is slightly buoyant, the wearer gains a +2 circumstance bonus on Swim checks, except when swimming downward.' but the value seems to have taken it into account.

I forgot I'd added the +2 bonus to Swim as a temporary adjustment in Hero Lab.

I switched to Scribe Scroll and scribed myself a whole pile of scrolls; things that aren't important very often, and don't care very much about caster level (which is why summon monster I isn't included), but when they are it's usually not convenient to wait until tomorrow to switch around your spell list. 0- and 1st-level scrolls at CL1 cost almost nothing to make!

Welcome to Sharzak (Colin) a Merean Bard.  We have a secondary healer, plus all those other good things that I'm sure bards do.

Hey everyone, so I think mine is done I posted it in the character information one, Leah's going to start entering hers.  If Paul wouldn't mind checking over it since I've never made a pathfinder bard before, I'd appreciate knowing if I just made some well known mistake or something.

The #1 mistake people make with bards is they forget to make sure they're combat-capable. Bards aren't full casters and shouldn't pretend they are; you need to have something to do during combat other than cast spells and play your banjo. (The other mistake is to use an instrument-based form of Performance, but I see you managed to dodge that one!) Unfortunately in an underwater campaign the usual strategy of an archer bard isn't going to work. I've heard it's possible to make melee bards but I'm less familiar with it.

I can tell you that dumping Strength probably isn't a good idea, even if you're planning to use Weapon Finesse. An Oratory bard doesn't need Wisdom (you get the second-most-important Wisdom skill from Versatile Performance, and you have good Will saves anyway); dump that instead. And you can't use Weapon Finesse with your snapping shield, anyway. Actually the whole snapping shield, while quite cool, is probably not going to work: you can't cast spells or even temporarily hold your rapier with that hand. Casters mostly can only use light shields for this reason. You can drop Weapon Finesse but you still can't afford to dump Dexterity, because you can't wear heavy armor. At least at low-level, most of the best choices for feats fall under the heading of "boring, but practical": Dodge, Weapon Focus, Toughness, Great Fortitude (or whichever of your saves needs help), Improved Initiative, Alertness, &c.

I... don't know that it's worth the point-buy cost to get to Charisma 19. It certainly matters more for bards than clerics, but it's VERY expensive. I really don't know about this one; I could be wrong. 20 definitely isn't worth it but there are some solid arguments for 19. Up to you.

Especially with Constitution 12, you can't afford to be taking skill points as your favored class bonuses. Sorry. Those two HP are important. Also, you forgot to include your Con bonus in your HP in the first place!

Keep UMD maxed. It's one of the bard's main features. Spellcraft too (all casters should keep Spellcraft maxed, even clerics!). Drop some extraneous Knowledges if necessary; you can pick them up later. I know those class skill bonuses are tempting but they'll still be there when you get around to it! Even if you're planning to take Versatile Performance (dance), seriously consider a point in Acrobatics. Tumbling is just that important for light armor characters. Also, a lot of your final skill modifiers are wrong; go through and recalculate them.

Your spell DC depends on the spell's level (and in some cases on the individual spell!) but DC 15 is correct for 1st-level spells. Non-scaling blasts generally aren't worth it for spontaneous casters, although chord of shards seems insanely overpowered for a 1st level spell. But still, 2d6 will fall off pretty quick (especially with Reflex negates) and then you have a dead spot in your repertoire, at least until 5th level when you can retrain it.

You can't (technically) take Savant; it has a background requirement (Kitharodian Academy) that you don't qualify for. There's probably no reason Zag wouldn't want to override this. You definitely can't take both Savant and Grim Optimism because they're both Basic (Social) traits.

You need to choose a lot more languages: 2 starting languages for high Intelligence, plus one more for your point in Linguistics.

See?  I told you that you wanted Paul's input.  :-)

I agree with everything he said except about the 19 charisma, since you're starting (essentially) at 3rd level.  (I've already said that you will all level up to 3rd once the intro scenario is over.)  You'll be getting another point at 4th level, which now is not that far away, and you'll be able then to push your charisma up to 20.

I am certainly glad to waive any background requirement for any traits, as long as you come up with a similar sort of rationalization in your own background.  I didn't know about the restriction on having two Social Traits, so if nobody mentions it, it's fine.  You definitely want Savant, since it effectively boosts Sense Motive and Diplomacy as well as your Perform; the two make for a pretty effective combination.  And Grim Optimism is mild enough that I don't mind if you have that, too.
This message was last edited by the GM at 18:04, Fri 23 Apr 2021.

Yeah, that's why I wasn't sure about Charisma 19. Bards are a lot more likely than clerics to be counting on their DCs actually being hard to beat, so that extra point of Charisma (setting you up for 20 at level 4, as you say) is pretty good! On the other hand, what he's giving up for that is Constitution 14 instead of 12, which is also... pretty important.

Actually, now that I think of it: you're a bit better off with Con 14 and skill points from favored class than Int 14 and hit points from favored class, because your Con modifier also affects Fortitude saves, while your Int modifier basically doesn't matter. In which case what you're giving up for Cha 19 is Int 14, which is way less valuable. So maybe Cha 19 is the way to go after all!

Also remember that most of my recommendations are about being an optimally effective character. If you don't care so much about being optimally effective, forget it! I mean, heck, I'm a cleric of Gozreh, aka "the most useless god in the entire book". I did the best I could within that concept (without adding too many extra splatbooks) but I'm not claiming it's good on any absolute scale.

The only one that's really set in stone is the snapping shield; casters just plain cannot use heavy shields, unless I suppose if you want to use it as your primary weapon and ditch the rapier entirely. Which might be fun! You'd end up with many of the same problems as a crossbow wielder (needing a move action to reload your weapon) but that probably doesn't matter THAT much, and you would want to take Improved Shield Bash (instead of Weapon Finesse; Arcane Strike is amazing and you'd never give that up). Also, you would want to pay the surcharge to make it masterwork as a weapon (in addition to being a masterwork shield). Again, it's up to you.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:54, Fri 23 Apr 2021.

Prime Requisite of 20 for a caster is not just for DC, but also gets you another first level spell slot.

so I switched weapon finesse for lingering performance, chord of shards for ear piercing shriek, and grim optimism for reactionary. Also updated the post with new sheet.  I think I'm good now?
This message was last edited by the player at 13:39, Sun 25 Apr 2021.

It looks good!


I realized after seeing your changes that Paul's suggestion here is missing one point, that swapping Con and Int did increase your hit points and saves, and his trade-off for Favored class point makes sense, but it also cost you a point on every Int-based skill which adds up to 8 points.  I don't think it matters a whole lot, but I just wanted to point it out.

Yeah, it's a consideration, but honestly the bonus on Intelligence skills just doesn't matter that much, especially for a bard. Spellcraft is kind of a shame, but all the others will be propped up into the stratosphere by Bardic Knowledge in pretty short order. One point in each is worth it (for the class skill bonus, just in case) but beyond that it's fine to specialize in whatever isn't covered by someone else in the party (Geography, History, and Nobility are the ones that typically get left to the bard because the rogue doesn't get them and no one else has enough skill points).
This message was last edited by the player at 18:46, Sun 25 Apr 2021.

Well, it looks like Marshall is a noshow, so we really ought to add at least one more person; we kind of need at least one front-line fighter.  Do you think that Kelsey and Kevin would want to join?

I know that the character creation in Pathfinder is pretty horrible.  As Kayla says, it is quite a barrier to entry.

Akulem and Sharzak, could you write a paragraph or so of back story?  I will be plundering those for scenario hooks later on.

If your story includes a large port land-based city, it will be Port of Rosillac.  Otherwise you should just make up the name of any town or underwater city that you want to exist, and I"ll place it in the world.  Just a once-phrase description is plenty if you don't want to do more, or you can describe as much as you want.  "Leshuay is a small merfolk willage with a tiny, nearly separate enclave of undine on the outskirts" would be more than enough.

So, Paul & Kayla:  Paul told me that you finished Kayla's character, but I don't see it anywhere.  Did you post it?

If you do, we can start.  I still think that Paul should make recommendations for Leah's character, Azora, but you haven't posted it anywhere that he can see it.
This message was last edited by the GM at 14:25, Sun 09 May 2021.

I realize that I need some sort of background for Azora and Liadain to create their initial threads.  I'm just looking for what has motivated your character to venture out into the world.

Sorry I thought we were still waiting on stuff to start so I hadn't checked in a few days, I know Leah's trying to figure out her backstory

No problem.  I've decided to be very relaxed about the pace, because anything else would make me crazy.

I started this small solo adventure with Paul, because I know that he'll move quickly and I want to experiment having a combat in the 3-D world.  This similar solo adventure of yours can grow or shrink, as you like.  This idea is that it is more of an investigation & discovery adventure than combat, but it could go in any direction.

Tell Leah not to overthink it.  She's a deep dwelleing sea elf.  I'm just looking for the primary reason she has come up to the shallow sea and even to the dry-land cities.  Searching for something, looking to get away from something or someone, just wishing to see sunlight and to broaden her horizons are all good enough reasons.
This message was last edited by the GM at 01:18, Fri 14 May 2021.

Yes, he is.  But I didn't know about that feat -- it's a rune of Freedom of Movement spell, once per day, inscribed on his axe.  He's forgotten to invoke it in the past, because (and you might have guessed this) he's not too bright.

You didn't roll perception for them.  It will be your perception rolls vs. the devilfish's stealth to see whether or not you get to act in the surprise round.  I'll get a post out there later, and I'll roll for them if you haven't seen this, yet.

Oh!  Have you rolled your 2nd level hit points?  You get max for first level and roll others, but for each roll, if it is less than half your maximum die roll, you bump it up to half.  But you still might roll more.
This message was last edited by the GM at 20:02, Fri 14 May 2021.