I give up

In reply to Floradon (msg # 202):

why do you give up?

This kind of reads like taunting, though that might just be me...



GMs have access to all PMs. I always read PMs at least briefly, to ensure civil conduct is occurring. I guess to each their own, though.



I'm not sure what workload you mean?



It's a bit hectic right now. I'd recommend reading what's in the IC thread so far, it will only get bigger from here, anyway.

If you don't have time to do that, then Tracking the Ages has the names (no details) on what the gods have done so far. IMO its not a lot of help, though.

It would take a while to write up a complete summary on the events in the last couple weeks, so I can't help you that much rn. Sorry :P



Yeah, I don't blame you at all. I'm also a little frustrated.

I'm also not 100% sure I like the vibes around here either, and my main game has just now resumed so I have less time to spend...

It's turning out a bit too difficult for me to successfully navigate all these interactions with other gods, what with PbP making communications naturally sluggish combined with the risk of wrecking other players' plans because your ACT got wrathed or didnt go through.

But I also don't feel like playing a single-player sandbox, so dunno what to do.

I offered my help in the beginning but no one contacted me.  If anyone wants to help me I will discuss my plans.  I expect more collaberation to occur in AEON 2.

Sometimes I think your steps need to be broken down a bit to eventually get what you want.

I also realised that we can make an empty universe whenever we want, since the world tree may grow but it will never fill the infinity ofcreation.

That was my read too actually.

For what it's worth I'm really enjoying this and don't get the issues.
This message was last edited by the player at 02:39, Sat 03 July 2021.

Until I adjudicate, you are free to edit however you like.

If it read like taunting, my apologies. That is not my intent. I was just a bit proud of the solution I found to what seemed a daunting task.

So, your two ACTs made "combinations possible" but did not say what those combinations were. I thought that was a well written ACT. My issue was it implied that Ao would define and describe what those 15+ new elements were. That's not my job. Exactly. I know that I have extrapolated and explained how certain ACTs interact with other ACTs and that occasionally creates new stuff. What I am not prepared to do is describe these 15 combinations of elements. That's a workload that I am not cool with. Adjudicating individual ACTs and keeping track of all the things in Creation that can interact is a lot to do already. I didn't want to write a paragraphs long adjudication explaining these new elements. But, I was actually planning a post along those line when the Tertiary Elements ACT went up and now I was to define how all those new secondary elements combined with the primary elements and one another.

Maybe that was just my interpretation of what was intended, but that was the workload I saw in those two ACTs. So, I thought I found a creative solution to that.

As for PMS, yeah I do like to read them. But 70+ PMS over the course of a week... I have a full time job and a family. *hand wave*

Now, I thought my adjudication of the Secondary Elements fit your plan perfectly. It means that the secondary elements exist in even more infinite combination; not just what elements are combined but how they are combined. It is just left to you and other gods to define what those are. The Tertiary Elements ACT seemed redundant to that. I feel like I accomplished what you two wanted in a single Adjudication.

But, if I am off the mark and you are feeling like things are not going your way, I don't want to take away from that feeling. I am just trying to explain what I saw and how I reacted. I hope that you can adapt and see a path forward. Personally, I thought the magic system you were trying to create is coming together nicely. Not sure it is exactly as you intended, but things rarely turn out exactly as intended. The Plane of Magic exists and is filled with primal elements, those elements can be drawn into Creation through the Mirror and used to do astounding things. Elements can be mixed to create secondary elements following recipes set out by the gods. What's missing?

I think originally he wanted to make a list of interactions which was denied (more than one act).  Then he made a rule, which gave the possibility of what was possible.  The declaration of each mix takes time and individual acts, or the use in an act could define the element at the same time. "I summon a ball of ice into Creation using magic using the admixture of Water and Earth."

No worries, it's often hard to display exact attitude through text.



100% Agree with you on that. Except, we've already defined the secondary elements in the PMs, though now that I know you haven't read them (which I assumed you had), I understand why you chose what you did.



Haha, that's understandable. I wouldn't judge any GM for being behind on reading posts.

I don't know if you intend to read PMs when you get time. If you don't, that's still workable, because we can just reiterate in OOC when we've concluded conversations.

IMO, it's important for everyone to be on the same page on their ideas about the game, even if those ideas are out of character thoughts and opinions.



Thank you for including this. Everything in this post is also just my opinions, and it's possible Elder or Floradon feel differently, and that is valid too.

---

Looking back, I think things are going along well enough. At least, we can continue with our plans from here, even if the path and end results are different than our target.

You do a good job of keeping the spirit of an act even if it gets wrath'd. It would be easier to guess the intent of a real human behind a jumble of virtual words under a layer of literal fiction, when game intent is included in OOC.

I'm feeling a lot better about things, but I'm still a bit wary about how large of a time commitment this has become. I think from now on, I'll have to limit myself to most of my OOC interactions being in Echoes of the Void.

Simply because this last burst of correspondance has taken a lot out of me. As you said, 70+ posts in one week is a lot for anybody.

Since a big game is returning right now, I need to ration my creative energy (even if I have unlimited time, that doesn't mean I always have available headspace. I think this is true for any of us, some times at least)

Glad we are copmmunicating.

I only want to add this: stating that elements CAN combine and stating what those combinations result in are not the same ACT. Honestly, if you hadn't spun out SO MANY possibilities, I might have gone along. But, you can't create the possibility of combinations and then define those combinations in the realms of dozens and dozens of them. IF it is just the list that was recently PM'd in the AEON thread, I might be persuaded.

After all, I am not the one spinning the grand plan here. And I am not the one that will make it happen. I am just the referee. AO is not another character in this game. AO is the GM.

 I'm good, I didn't have any skin in the ring, so to speak.

It may be redundant to give a double-assist, but I feel like 3 total actions is quite different from just two, as it is a measure of a whole real-life week, or an approximate third of an in-world Aeon. That may have some significance.

Honestly I am still figuring out this game, so it’s worth a try!

In other games I've seen this has been done with success, but I've also seen some games where a single act can almost create regular physics in total. It's really how AO wants to handle it.
This message was last edited by the player at 04:26, Sun 04 July 2021.

Sorry about the long post Ao.

OK, in interest of moving forward, I adjudicated those Secondary element ACTs favorably. However, I allowed each "helping post" to accomplish finishing one element's worth of combinations. Yes, it will take two more to finish the process.

And I was nice in allowing four of the Secondary elements to "attach" to and become defined by stuff that already existed since things with basically the same name were created by others.

Other Secondary elements which have not been created now exist as pure potential energy with a unique name. They have no definition. Lightning exists but has no properties. Why would it. NO ONE CREATED LIGHTNING YET!

Yeah, I am getting peeved by people trying to Create things without creating them. NOTHING EXISTS unless you make it. You're presuming too much. Look, some folks like thing to be relatively normal like what Quixes is doing in the Backup. Some like weirdness like what is happening with the World Tree style universe. Personally, I have no bias toward either. For me, these games are about exploring our assumptions of how things work. So, my most fundamental rule that I follow as Ao is to assume nothing exists unless it is made explicitly by a god. Yea, there's gray areas and stuff that falls into cracks that I try to deal with, but... be careful with these Secondary Elements. I've never WRATHed so much in any of my previous games. I try to be up front with what I am expecting.

I mean, I think you guys are doing some fun stuff. i thought the Tower was really subtle and interesting. Good grief, if the Plane of Magic had started with something like that... you know, with the pipes drawing in the elements from the immaterial...

Sorry, /endrant. I am enjoying this. Keep up the good work. just be careful. I am a big fan of punishing violations of the DOMINO EFFECT.

After reading your post here and your adjudications, I realize we have been trying to both create things without definitions and define things that aren't created. I tried to resolve the issue of lack-of-definition in my new megapost, because the tower should already automatically create anything which is properly defined!

You seem to be getting it. Perhaps, you missed the part where Metal, Wood, and Water Secondary elements had not yet been Created? Only the Air, Fie, and Earth ones. I used that list I saw as the basis to adjudication. The last three entries on it have not been created yet. Basically, Ice, Laceration, and Growth don't exist to be defined yet... I mean, two of those even have analogs in Creation...

I think my post went well.  I was worried it assumed too much from previous acts in the post and was a bit too direct but I am pleased in the result.

Oh, I see. I didn't realize 'creation' and 'placing them in the tower' were different. That makes sense, now that I reread...

So there is kind of three steps to it, then?:

1. God must create element
2. God must define elements
3. God must place element in the world.

And so far, it looks like this?:

1. God must create element (12/15)
2. God must define elements (??/15)
3. God must place element in the world (06/15)

As of now, my post attempts to define nine elements. But, now that I look back, im not sure the 6 i considered 'defined' had actually been defined or just created. If possible, I'd like confirmation on that so I could go back on edit. If not, that's okay too though, because the post will still make a lot of progress.

The other issue with my post right now is it attempts to define elements which havent been CREATE'd. Those being ice, laceration and growth.

Probably should make a few edits, now. I'm wondering is it possible to both create and define an element simultaneously?

Not sure if that's okay, but I think we've done similar stuff before with quite a lot of ACTs. In fact, the main reason we keep inadvertently getting on your nerves is because we have kept forgetting to 'create' things before 'defining' them.

I had it in my mind for some reason that defining something would create and place it in the world, but it seems since that's not the case so more careful wording will be needed in the future! This is actually a positive facet, because i can imagine situations where a god would want to set something up without actually putting it into motion right away.

what actually defines a sentient creature from a non-sentient, does it need intelligence? Could I create an animal that isn't all that special or intelligent(and never will be), but at least isn't defined by strict laws, or is anything that requires some sort of action outside of the god's definition considered sentient?

Animals and plants and other forms of life, such as the sentinels, are fine. They are intelligent, have instincts, and are aware.

Sentience is something far beyond that.

Thus why the Study is so one-dimensional. It's about the level of an octopus or squid or corvid. It can learn from direct experience and carry that experience over to further things. But anything it hasn't directly learned, it cannot extrapolate beyond immediate applications. It can't predict outcomes.

Sentience is just that level beyond where it extrapolates from information it possesses to predict the future or the past.

My favorite example is meteorology. Any creature aware of its surroundings can see the dark clouds and expect rain. Smarter ones of those with hyper-specialized senses/instincts might even be able to know rain is coming from far off or in a day or two from things we, as people, can't perceive. But the average ten day forecast or a farmer's almanac predicitng years and years ahead are the realm of sentience.

So no, self-awareness and culture are not my measures. Predictive behavior is.

@ Elys - Creating and Defining a single thing is fine. That's happened many times already. Look at the Origin Sun, Rhombohedron Moon, Chariots of Wind, Sentinels. Created and defined in one ACT. The Tower and pipes were also great examples. Creating all the Secondary Elements in one fell swoop ha always been my issue with the PoM project.

Again, see the DOMINO EFFECT in the rules.

One might even say that is the two basic steps of the CREATE power of a god: make a  thing then define it. Personally, that was why I thought how I arbitrated the Law of Secondary Elements was genius. Essentially, the way it worked would have defined everything that was created from then on as a Secondary Element. Well, it basically still does. *shrugs* That's why the Spirit has started using the elements in the Tower to recreate certain things from Creation.

A bit wonky grammar, but my post has been edited.

Probably the last one I'm doing, unless I find some glaring issue.

So, feel free to adjudicate it whenever you like :)