I said in the RTJ, where I encouraged people to bring along any concept they like, I said I am open to any class that anybody wants to play, and if I think a class doesn't work or I don't want to allow them, I will try to work with people about it. I feel like this will work better with an example, so I'm making one.
First, I will say that the Fighter, especially with my offer of a free feat a level for normal character progression, is a somewhat disappointing class, and if a player picked a class like that, I would likely be very open to suggestion from them on how to make it better.
On the other hand, the Brawler is a class that I wouldn't really want to see in use, for a variety of reasons, both thematic and mechanical.
For the former, the problem is that it basically replaces monk by being better at its job, but due to its lack of mystical elements, it actually shrink the amount of viable character concepts people can play; and while the idea of having it be a flexible counterpart to the fighter without being actually better than it has merit in the abstract, in practice what it does is make the fighter feel less special by stealing the title of "feat master" from it.
Mechanically, while the martial flexibility is iconic, once the ability to use it for an immediate action it becomes very cumbersome in actual play, creating a lot of breaks in the action, and the capstone that lets the user gain thirteen feats at once is just unwieldy to use, and since I expect you to reach lv 20th in this game, it would see use. And while the maneuver training is intended as their offensive scaling bonus, it doesn't really offer enough as an ability to stand on its own, working against the class concept by having diminishing returns on multiple maneuvers on a class that can actually change which maneuvers they have fight-by-fight. It's a very scattershot approach.
So, ideally, I'd want to make the fighter better, make it feel more special and unique as well as better fitting the role of feat master, while removing the brawler without losing the ability to let people mess with its coolest abilities - without giving them access to the game breaking levels of it.
My solution to that is to improve the Fighter. This is accomplished through the following modifications:
At first level, grant the Fighter the Combat Stamina feat as a bonus. There's no need to make it exclusive, since the Fighter will still be the class that can best take advantage of it; getting it for free should be more than enough.
For their bonus combat feats, instead of giving them one every two levels, expand it to one feat every level. That should compensate for me giving everybody a free feat from level progression, and also make the fighter's claim to feat mastery much more iron clad.
For Armor Training, the normal procedure is that the players trades away the meaningless numerical bonuses for the Advanced Armor Training; that being the case, I don't see the point in offering the players a false choice here, so I'd change it to make the third level ability scale as stated but without any conditions, and instead at level 7th, 11th and 15th the players would just get one of the Advanced Armor Training options of their choice.
Then, at level 4th, I'd grant to the fighter the brawler's Maneuver Training, having it retain its four level scaling (improving at lv 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th up to +5), but with a slight change that, instead of the maneuvers picked at the levels having increasingly less of the bonus, each newly picked maneuver will benefit from the full bonus; so, at level 12th, three different maneuvers would get a +3 bonus. This makes the ability far more useful as a means to let somebody use multiple maneuvers. Furthermore, I'd say that it'd be fair that, if an archetype requested that the fighter trade away their bonus feats gained at lv 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th, the player could trade instance of this ability in its stead.
Weapon Training has the same issues of the diminishing return issue that Maneuver Training had, and due to that, the problem of a meaningless choice that Armor Training offered is even worse, as in Weapon Training case, the players doesn't even lose the numerical bonus, just the additional weapon groups that were never as good as the primary one anyway. I think that, in this case, applying the same solution as Maneuver Training works: make the full bonus apply to any new weapon group that the player selects. This will still likely not encourage people to actually pick more than one weapon group, but at least now there's an actual tradeoff, in that, especially combined with Attunement, the base ability would really open the number of combat styles a fighter can excel at.
Finally, the fighter should get a reduced version of Martial Flexibility. I would give this to them at level 6th, and have it scale up at level 10th, 14th and 18th, with a few changes. Specifically, while the first stage would stay the same, granting one feat as a move action, the second level would only reduce the cost to a swift action, then the level 14th option would allow for getting two feats as a move action, and finally the 18th option would allow for getting two feats as a swift action and one feat as a free action.
So, here's what the ultimate result would look like, in a table:
FIGHTER (redesigned)
Lv | BAB | FORT | REF | WILL | Special |
1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +0 | Bonus Feat, Combat Stamina |
2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +0 | Bonus Feat, Bravery +1 |
3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +1 | Bonus Feat, Armor Training |
4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Bonus Feat, Maneuver Training I |
5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Bonus Feat, Weapon Training I |
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Bonus Feat, Martial Flexibility 1, Bravery +2 |
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Bonus Feat, Advance Armor Training I |
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +2 | Bonus Feat, Maneuver Train. II |
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +3 | Bonus Feat, Weapon Train. II |
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +3 | Bonus Feat, Martial Flex. 2, Bravery +3 |
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +3 | Bonus Feat, Advance Armor Train. II |
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +4 | Bonus Feat, Maneuver Train. III |
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +4 | Bonus Feat, Weapon Train. III |
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +4 | Bonus Feat, Martial Flex. 3, Bravery +4 |
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +5 | Bonus Feat, Advance Armor Train. III |
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +5 | Bonus Feat, Maneuver Train. IV |
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +5 | Bonus Feat, Weapon Train. IV |
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +6 | Bonus Feat, Martial Flex. 4, Bravery +5 |
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +6 | Bonus Feat, Armor Mastery |
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +6 | Bonus Feat, Maneuver Train. V, Weapon Mastery |
So, this means that, if anybody wants to use a Fighter in this game, they'll get to use this version, and if anybody wants to use a brawler, I'll offer them this compromise instead. If I come up with any other class modification for other classes that people ask me about, I'll post them in this thread so that people can make use of them if they want to.
Furthermore, while I don't really want the Brawler to be used as a class, some of the abilities I didn't transfer can be converted to feats (for example, their Knockout ability could make a nice feat with BAB +4 requirement that scales up at BAB +10 and BAB +16), so that people can still access them if they want; this allows me to give player access to some non-problematic abilities of the class they wanted while keeping problematic abilities out of play. That's also a possibility to keep in mind; I can't think of everything myself, but anything that people bring up to me, I'll consider, and generally try to find a way to make it work.
I hope this will help people understand that, when I say "I'll do my best to work with what you bring me", I do actually mean it. As long as you can justify me why your concept requires me to do the work and would not work with any other alternative I might propose, doing the work isn't a problem for me.
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:43, Sat 15 Jan 2022.