Quite frankly, it really does not feel like it is.

The GM summerized the situation and possible consequences.

In reply to Cathal O'Donoghue (msg # 400):

I am very aware, thank you.

All actions and choices have consequences. All I have done it outline what the current situation is, although actually I've ignored any possible change in the weather, which by my existing predicated story-line is set fair until about 8am tomorrow. What happens after that I will actually roll a dice for, because that is a random determination.

I have not taken any choice as to what you do away from you.
Cathal posted advising against Sarah doing what she suggested before I made the post above outlining the current situation and  possible consequences.
Cassandra didn't read the post, her commentary was based purely on the description of what had happened since you arrived in the Shadow.
The choice at the end of the day is still very much yours.

And Rhiannon also had input but perhaps that was overlooked...again

No .. you posted before Sarah made her "I'm statying" post, then Cathal posted, then I posted as GM in the Discussion thread, then I posted as  Cassandra/Natsikui/Charlie, then you made your second post backing up Cathal's and everyone else's opinion.

Sarah made her post after Charlie responded to your first post, so your first post wasn't overlooked at all.

We're all waiting on Sarah's final decision..

I was talking about this discussion.

We have a new player. achmed_the_mad is taking over Alana.

I must admit that I am frustrated, and my frustration is not borne out of the current situation so much as it is from the feeling that there are no meaningful decisions available for my character to make -- even small ones. Everyone has reasons for playing games; I do so to participate meaningfully in storytelling. So far, I do not feel that I have made any meaningful contribution, despite attempting to at several points.

In improv, there is a principle of "Yes, and...", with the idea being that in order to build on the momentum of the troupe, every interaction should validate at least some of what others have contributed while also adding upon it. While I recognize that RPGs are very much dependent on the GM's story, I also have an expectation that I will be able to carve out a bit of story for myself. (I heard Rhiannon expressing a similar desire when she talked about "wanting to be romanced" earlier -- although perhaps I did not understand her point.) I feel like every time I have attempted this -- regardless of how small or inconsequential -- the effort has been completely and utterly shut down.

The overall story is interesting, but so far I've felt like I might as well be reading a novel. I like reading novels, but I have a different set of expectations upon starting a novel as compared to playing a game. I expect to be emotionally invested in the protagonist(s) in both -- it is the protagonists' decisions (and the consequences of those decisions) that move the plot forward. I have given up on my character having any power to move the plot forward (or even contribute to meaningfully assisting the plot in moving forward, really -- I assume that the plot will move regardless and without relation to anything my character does). In this case, the described consequences are "go and die a horrible death in the cold". To me, this compresses to "if you have your character do that, you will exit the game as your character will be dead", which does not really feel like a meaningful decision. If I wanted to leave the game, I would simply say, "remove me from the game please."

It is not my intention to say that anyone is doing anything wrong; I am fully responsible for what and how I feel and think. Everything above is an explanation of my perspective. Having said that, how I feel and think has an effect on my desire to post and engage, and quite frankly that is at an all time low. Your game is your game, of course; perhaps I am not a good fit for it as a player.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:37, Sat 20 Apr.

Currently, all of the characters PC or not, do not have all the basic abilities normally associated with an 'Amberite' ala the books because everyone in the books has had a couple of thousand years to acquire those 'god like' skills and abilities.

Yes I do have a story, and a lot of the story depends on the characters at least being able to do certain basic things, such as being able use the Pattern and to Shadow Walk.
All of the characters are completely 'New' to the concept of being members of a 'Royal Family' and what that may imply.
The 'Balls' were just an 'introduction' to one of the things being a member of the Royal Family brings. Other than that it had no more importance to the story, hence there were no 'romantic' plot lines, but I said at the time that any body who wanted to write their own liason was free to do so.
As with a lot of what I write, there were elements in that scenario that were also potential plot hooks or which introduced characters that may be useful.
What if anything becomes of any of those is again down to what the PCs choose to do.

The current story-line around Ghostwheel introduces a significant plot element but is also the basis for everyone gaining the basic knowledge to be able to learn to Shadow Walk.

When the party left Carnelian, you left with 2 days of food for both yourselves and your horses. The Lord Kylestenson scenario and the way it was played meant you didn't need to use any of those supplies. It also deliberately leaves a whole lot of threads open.

In the current scenario, you have no choice but to expend the resources you left Carnelian with. If Charlie hadn't directed the use of half rations, then you'd all be out of food already. Just because she is an NPC does not mean she is omnipotent or knows anything about what is going to happen, or how long it is going to take, or what the reasons behind anything happening are. For all intents and purposes in a scenario she knows as much about what is going on as the PCs do. She might know things about the PCs but there are reasons why she does, some of which have been hinted at, at least to everyone other than Sarah (a chunk of that was in the Pattern demonstration scenario which Sarah wasn't around for).

AS characters you know from your stay in the village they have very little food, which means they are not likely to share it with anyone (and that likely means even within the village). In the same way they have no specific reason to go with Sarah just on her say so.

People can do the maths on how long it will take to get back to the village in the same way as I can, based on how long it took you to get here. Assuming you use the trail you created to get here, and hence don't have to break a trail, it will take about half the time it took you to get here in the first place,  which means it will take 10 to 11 hours to get back to the village. It's already the best part of 12 hours since you all last ate.

Even after getting back to the village Sarah would then have to get out of the shadow, either with or without the villagers. She has the basic precepts of how to Shadow Walk, but no 'unsupervised' experience and no experience of manifesting the Pattern in a Pattern Locked Shadow - Charlie didn't either but she does have a couple of years of experience of using it. As I posted elsewhere using the path you created to get to/from the village would complicates getting out of the Shadow, hence needing to use a 'new' path but that is inherently slower in terms of walking because walking through 'fresh' snow is much harder than walking across 'old snow'. Sarah would then have to get to somewhere where she can get food and shelter. Sarah does not have Pattern Search so she can't use the Pattern to find anywhere, so it would be down to 'luck'.

All of the constraints are therefore both circumstantial and to Sarah not having the necessary skills to make her life easier.
From a scenario perspective, if one of the characters were a 'conjurer' who understood how magic operates across Shadow then things would be different, but nobody opted to play a conjurer, and Cormac doesn't currently understand the constraints of how magic works across Shadow, so can't use his sorcery to help (assuming he knows any spells which would be of use).

In the same way as Sarah used the Pattern in the first scenario, she could have chosen to do the same research in the village that Cathal and Rhiannon did.
There was a point to it all..
Everything in the plot line is intended to allow the characters to gain the skills they need whilst giving them things they can do, as Cordelia put it 'to learn on the job'.
A lot of the scenarios are also designed to reveal chunks of the background history, and other things that are and have been going on, but they are also designed to educate the characters to the reality of what being able to wander about in Shadow means, and the dangers that can come about as a result.
The vast majority of Shadow is not 21st Century Earth with all it's conveniences.
Charlie does not carry her Bergen full of stuff around for no reason.

Also bear in mind that as per the game advert/introduction the game is designed for at least 5 characters with a broad spread of skills. In terms of PCs you do not have that spread.

Once you get out of this shadow, then as Charlie has already indicated both she and Alana have exams (note for achmed_the_mad.. Alana in her original conception was very keen not to waste her 2 years in the sixth form and therefore very very intent on sitting her exams. I believe her exam timetable is on the website, if not I can forward it to you), so Charlie will be around a lot less, but she does have a key role to play in the rescue of survivors from Xantigra (that's the name of this Shadow by-the-way). But so potentially do the PCs, but that you will like everything else, have to find out for yourselves, and how that pans out is completely down to what the PCs do.

This means a lot of what happens next is down to what the characters do.. at least for some while..
The gap, such as it exists, is there for couple reasons
1) To allow Cordelia to get to the point where she can attempt to fix Ghostwheel - that will become clearer in a while..
2) Probably more importantly from a character perspective to give them an opportunity to develop some of their skills, and spend some of those 'spare' CPs.
3) Do something or nothing in relation to Xantigra - Natsuki will drive this if nobody else does and NPCs not involved with what ever the PCs choose to do will end up doing this by default.

Without (2) then the next scenario just can't happen, because you all need to be able to Shadow walk, so you can learn to Hell Ride.
Ideally the Trump artists need to be able to create Shadow spanning Trumps, at least as durable sketches, and having Trumps of each other would be really useful as well. And these all take time to produce.

Everything you've said makes perfect sense, and also does not address the fundamental concern I expressed.

You're also saying that Sarah should have stayed at home because she didn't want to learn to Shadow Walk.

So you're saying that none of your actions had any impact what so ever on the way the 'Lord Kylestenson' scenario played out?

You're saying that as a character Sarah learnt absolutely nothing from the whole scenario.. not even that you can't use the Pattern in Combat because it's too slow, that there times to use it to find things that are otherwise hidden, and there are times to just rely on your abilities.

The Ghostwheel scenario happens because people are learning to Shadow Walk. The whole scenario is predicated on that.
It's always triggered by whom ever goes 3rd.
It's an investigate scenario, find out what is going on and get out. It is a 'Kobayashi Maru' scenario.
The difference this time through is all the PCs had the Pattern up when Cathal took you into the shadow. That has a very specific consequence. You can't make decisions or influence things if you're unconscious.

No. She's saying what I've been feeling. We don't feel like part of the story. And sorry Sarah, it irks me to reduce what I said to just being about romance. Yes, I like the slice of life elements. Yes, I like personal interactions. But that was just one way in which I tried to carve out something where I mattered. Another example is just now when I wrote a paragraph in support of Sarah sticking with the group and I didn't even get mention in the discussion above.

I feel like we are just passengers in this story. The idea that we have to write our own parts is not the slightest bit motivating. Writing my own subplots defeats the point of playing a game vs just writing a story. I don't know why we have to play out learning to use these powers, but if there is a reason, at least we should have some important part to play while that happens. If it wasn't for Cathal, there would be nothing about this experience making me feel valued. And the part that's so frustrating is that the GM can fix that but seems unwilling to even try.

In reply to Rhiannon Erica Kerrigan (msg # 411):

I apologize if I mischaracterized or minimized your issue, Rhiannon; I was going on memory of a specific point that I remembered you making. It was intended as more as an example that I'm not alone than as a complete description of your position. And, quite frankly, I did read your post, and yours was the one most likely to convince Sarah to stay. I haven't responded to that post simply because of the broader issues of frustration that I originally brought up -- issues which you seem to share. I will admit that I have not quite known how to get Sarah and Rhiannon interacting more; I have perhaps not been as obvious/explicit about that as I could have been. But overall, I fully affirm everything you're saying.

Honestly, I'm not angry about any of this; I just feel sad. It's quite clear to me, GM, that you've put a ton of thought and effort into the story you want to tell, and I really want to be engaged and part of it! (I wouldn't have asked the tons of questions about things -- nor would I have shared suggestions, opinions, etc about stuff -- if I wasn't interested.) It also feels like you're very protective of the integrity of that work... which means that there's not really room for us, as players, to be engaged and part of it.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:58, Sun 21 Apr.

The story is supposed to be about the characters adjusting to their new reality.
Adjusting to their new reality means adjusting expectations of what their lives may mean and learning new things.

So I skip 2 years, they can now all walk the Pattern and use it. They have a nice array of new powers, they've all adjusted to their new reality.
The Pattern has now been fixed, Shadow is open once more, end story.

Thank you, Sarah. I appreciate that affirmation. I think you've pretty much picked up everything I've been feeling. The reason Rhiannon hasn't tried to get closer to Sarah is that there really hasn't been time. Or maybe I could have made the time, but also Sarah appeared in the middle of our feud with Charlie, and it looked like Sarah was Charlie's new favorite student. There was some IC pettiness on Rhiannon's part, but as the interactions progressed it seemed that Charlie and Sarah had some special relationship in which Rhiannon could play no part. And she was a bit jealous. Rhiannon tried to make friends with Charlie and was iced out from the start.

@GM: Why does it have to be so extreme? If the journey is part of the story, then fine. That doesn't mean the players can't have opportunities to make some kind of difference. Not everything has to be about the broken pattern. Stories can have subplots and side stories. There can be arcs the begin and end in a few chapters.

To me, the Ghostwheel chapter was literally just exposition. We rode along, and felt some tension from the danger posed by the weather conditions. I got to talk to the villagers but gained nothing that led us to the Ghostwheel or told us anything about its nature. None of us got to discover it. We had to be told what it was. I still don't understand why it even matters. One or more of us could have found it. The Ghostwheel could have told us its story. It would have been so much more engaging if Charlie was out of it, and we had to struggle with our powers to make the discovery, maybe as some way to help the villagers and following clues they provided. That would have given us an opportunity to learn more, to become a part of the narrative, and to be invested in the outcome. Saving ourselves would have made us better shadow walkers. What if we (the players) were the ones stranded alone. Bringing up the pattern would have been more difficult. We would have had to take turns and maybe even suffered some injury or starvation in the process. The ordeal would have been bonding, and we would have learned more about ourselves and our powers. We could have discovered the Ghostwheel along the way, maybe gaining something that made our escape easier.

The way it happened was Charlie did all the heavy lifting. Charlie brought up the pattern, Charlie led us to the Ghostwheel. Charlie took the risk touching it before we could even discuss it.  Charlie understood what it was and what it needed. And then Charlie gave us a sanctimonious chiding about our responsibility to save the Ghostwheel. Speaking for myself, I have no reason to care about it other than it is possibly sentient and dying. But to me, the villagers are more sentient and also in danger and more immediately sympathetic. This was Charlie's story. I think what we're asking for is for this to be our story, or at least to feel like we're a part of the story being told aside from observers.

The villagers didn't know anything about Ghostwheel.
Their story was one of impending disaster, that everything has been going downhill for several years.

Ghostwheel, deliberately picked a place where it could hide.. very much self preservation against people who wouldn't have been able to understand what it was.
The only way to locate it was Pattern Search (not strictly true but that was where the 'new' character would have come in, had there been one), and you can't get Pattern Search until you have Shadow Walking. There was also a way to get a clue as to where it might be.. but you need to ask the right question in the village, which was where they got their iron from. But then you walked right past the iron mine with not a comment from anyone.

Rhiannon and Sarah have just about enough experience to shadow walk out of this shadow. Yes it would be a struggle for them but they could still do it.
Neither of them have suggested it.

I gave you all the clues about a massive Trump source. Nobody bothered to act on any of them.
It didn't have to be Charlie who put her hand on Ghostwheel but nobody else stepped up.

As to what part Ghostwheel plays in future events you'll have to wait to find out. Charlie doesn't know, she told you Ghostwheel wouldn't tell her anything much other than it needed Cordelia's help.

As to the chiding, it was Rhiannon who called the whole thing 'A detour' was it not, implying the whole situation could have been avoided, and Charlie could just have ignored the whole situation.
This message was last edited by the GM at 20:18, Sun 21 Apr.

In reply to GameMaster (msg # 415):


We literally did not have the chance to interact with the thing before Charlie intervened. The group had barely entered the room before Charlie was all up on it. Go back and look. You posted the map, Cathal posted about looking for a light, and then you posted about Charlie touching the thing. Not even 3 hours had passed, real time. Why couldn't that interaction with Ghostwheel have waited? If you'd wanted us to interact with it, why not wait until one of us interacted with it?

I'm tired. Your responses indicate that you seem to think that I (and Rhiannon) want everything to be easy, and I am honestly at a loss as to how to convey the difference between "easy" and "being engaged". As I said before, I believe, now more than ever, that I am not a good fit as a player for this game. Please remove me.

You missed my point again. My suggestion was about how it could have gone if you had written the scenarios with the player at the center instead of as supporting cast for the NPC. You came back with how you chose to write it. It's fine. Whatever. We are trying to tell you why we've been dissatisfied with the game. You know, we could have just quit/ghosted and said nothing. But we didn't. We communicated our feelings. I would think that with all the work that's gone into this, you'd want to have this discussion and make adjustments so it can continue. I just feel like this whole game is meant advance the NPC's stories. I mean, I've been at this for over two years. In that time, nothing has changed for Rhiannon in terms of story narrative. I get that this is Rhiannon's new reality and she has to adapt to it, but as a player, I have to be interested in that reality. I'm still waiting for the hooks you promised.

Two years.

Sarah was correct in her 'quitting' post. Yes I jumped the gun by not waiting until the following day before having Charlie do anything.

If Rhiannon has no interest in any of the loose ends that came out of the Lord Kylestenson scenario, no interest in Ghostwheel (in any shape or form), and no interest in any saving any or the population in Xantigra which is no simple task, then I might as well call it quits and delete the game.

It's not about if Rhiannon has an interest. It's about my investment. Aside from saving the population, which hasn't happened yet, Kylestenson and Ghostwheel are just situations I watched. Rhiannon had no input to how the story unfolded. With Kylestenson I tried to get her involved by rallying the men, but as it turned out Rhiannon was superfluous. The men needed no rallying, she didn't matter. After that I checked out. She's not a fighter, not a magician. There was little for her to do. For the Ghostwheel event, she only watched with nothing to contribute. I can see why Rhiannon might be curious, but that's all it is at this point. It's a curiosity that Charlie discovered and Cordelia is instrumental to solving. All the PCs get to do is observe. I don't see why we should care. If we actually had a hand in any of these things, maybe it would be different.

Whether you delete the game is up to you. To be honest, after all this time, I don't feel like you are willing to change anything. Cordelia and Charlie are the heroes and we are just supporting cast at best and extras at worst. As it is, I prefer games with strong social elements. Adventures and combat are only so appealing, especially when there is no actual problem to solve. Rhiannon and Charlie don't get along. There is little for her to do other than learn. He contributions - such as they are - seem to be either ignored or irrelevant. Whatever purpose she might serve is in the future and in the meantime she has no social life. She has to put up with being under the tutelage of someone she doesn't like and who has never liked her. Rhiannon is just doing what's expected of her, nothing more. Yes, she wants to be trained, but she honestly fears also that if she tries to back out, they would kill her.

I just don't understand why this is so hard to understand. After two years, I really want to enjoy this, but I guess you're going to do what you're going to do.

And just so there is no misunderstanding... I'm not interested in continuing if it's all going to be action adventures and dungeons. I still need social and romantic elements. I need to feel like my character matters beyond her powers and royal authority. I just want to make sure I'm not giving any false signals.
This message was last edited by the player at 01:16, Mon 22 Apr.

You're correct saving the population hasn't happened yet, and in theory if the PCs choose to ignore it then it doesn't rally matter as a story line.
The whole storyline is about restoring the Pattern, and yes that does deveolve to Cordelia and Ghostwheel but that all happens in the background. The PC's get to deal with other events because Cordelia can't (why will be become clear when it's relavent).

Combat encounters occur for 2 reasons 1) A character wanders into a shadow and situation where it's more than likely to occur 2) It's fundamental part of what happens in the scenario.
There are 3 situations where it will definately occur and a couple of others where it occurs if the players 'get-it-wrong'.
To be honest there is no real scope for romance until at least the Pattern is restored, unless Rhainnon deliberately goes out of her way to create such a situation.

You will get to meet people and go places (and one of those can be construed as a dungeon of sorts). Whether or not you choose to interact with any of the poeple or not determines what happens.

You are correct that in the Lord Kylestenson scenario, Lord Kylestenson's troopers did not need rallying, that's what the job of his Sergeant at arms was. You completely picked the wrong thing to do. By then 'switching off' it was left with the NPCs, or specifically Charlie, to deal with Lord Kylestenson, the two girls, the cooks in the kitchen, and nominally Lady Meridith, although that fell to Tiberius in the end.
In the Ghostwheel scenario there were at least 2 people to deal with, the 'Headsman' and the 'Blacksmith'. If you'd played your cards right you might have got something out of the villagers as well.

If I get no interaction from a player for 10 days then it basically says "we're compeltely not interested in what's happening", which from my perspective menas "finish the sceranio as fast as possible and move on". And then I get dumped on because "we didn't get a chance to interact" or "you could have done it differently".

I'm really now at the point where I can't decide whether its worth me bothing any more or not.

I'm sitting here trying to figure out what I could have done differently, but honestly, I'm not seeing it. With the villagers apparently I didn't ask the right questions, and got no guidance on that. Even the reporting of the conversation was summarized off screen. There's a gaggle of NPCs to do things, so it's never clear what needs to be done and under the leadership we had, she was getting no direction. In fact, Rhiannon was almost completely overlooked in every case where tasks were delegated. So, after this response, I can see it will be more of the same.

Apparently, I'm not smart enough to understand how to play this game. Go ahead and remove me. Thank you for all the work you put into it, but this isn't the game for me.

So I'll start with an Apology to achmed_the_mad for wasting their time.

Given that nobody is actually interested in playing the game, then I really see no point in continuing.
Obviosuly this game doesn't work in this format, but given modern player aren't interested in anything other than playing 5E is doesn't work in any format any longer.
Once I've archived the threads, then I shall delete the game.
Given I realrly find anything I'm interested in playing and all those I've tried so far have died either because of the GM ghosting or lack of players, then I'm in tow minds about deleting my account as well.

Thanyou to those who bothered to try and to stuck around for so long.

Thank you for GMing.