"At 15 I thought I knew everything, how to manipulate old farts to get what I wanted. Then my father tried to marry me off for a Corp promotion. Maybe if I'd have known what was in store for me in the next couple of years I might, just might have opted for the marriage. Lets just say that the real world and the Corp world I'd been sheltered in for those 15 years were 2 very different things. 18 is a good compromise, yes there are some that can cope at 16, I probably could have, but 90% of my shallow compatriots, not a chance, they'd have dived in feet first without the first idea of the consequences then regretted it once reality hit home."

Rhiannon smiled. She was actually enjoying the way the conversation went. Not that the family business wasn't interesting, but these kinds of social discussions were just so fun.

"I would have been fine at sixteen, which actually wasn't so long ago. I agree that some of my friends might have gone over their heads, but so what? Mistakes and regrets are part of growing up. I've made plenty and I wouldn't go back and change anything." She paused, then took a deep breath. "Well maybe one thing. Maybe it's that I grew up in foster homes, but I feel like people shouldn't be protected from themselves. If there's a good chance of getting seriously hurt or killed, then sure, but short of that?" She shrugged. "I knew damn well what I was doing at sixteen. Probably younger."

"I will agree with you on the general principle that people should not be protected from themselves but with a caveat, that the long term costs of not protecting them is not a detrimental burden to the rest of society. Thus it may be necessary to impose a degree of restriction, no matter how irksome to a minority, if the cost of not imposing such restrictions is significantly greater than the cost of doing so. Unfortunately no matter what our personal feelings may be on the subject, or our personal experiences or ability to cope, we have to govern and make decisions based on the ability or lack thereof of the majority, and I've no doubt that the personal circumstances of your upbringing has had an impact on your maturity and ability to cope with given situations. Each of you has strengths and weaknesses based upon how you were or weren't nurtured, some of which are evident from how you have behaved so far."

"I would disagree a bit. Up to a certain age is it not the duty of society to protect the children. Knowing and knowing are two things. You know what you where doing at sixteen but has a sixteen also the wisdom to know if what she does is good for them. I think that is the point that another person can tell. Some are at 16 old enough other are not." Cathal says. "And those that are not old enough need to be protected, even if it means less so-called fun."

"Of course society should protect children, Cathal. I simply disagree. I feel that sixteen year olds aren't children. I feel like if you protect them and coddle them like children then they act like children. Half the gamers at the party act like children too. When you protect people from consequences, they act like there aren't any. If a few sixteen year olds get drunk and do something they regret, so what? It's in the safety of the mansion. Anything bad that can happen can happen to an eighteen or twenty one year old. They're not any wiser, really. Not unless they've made those mistakes already or seen their friends make them. In which case, the rules preventing it already don't work. If you go to a university, you'll see people going wild because the leash is finally off. They do all kinds of regretful things. I argue that it's because they've never been taught, or even been allowed to party and have that kind of fun. The ones who end up getting hurt the most are the ones who were the most sheltered. Sixteen, eighteen, twenty-on even, I would challenge you tell me the difference other than a very arbitrary line of when it's okay to be irresponsible."
This message was last edited by the player at 17:11, Fri 29 Dec 2023.

"I understand what you say. And what I want to remark that age is not an objective indicator. Some 13 might be old enough some 17 might be not old enough. 16 might be not children anymore but they are not grown up and still need some protection. And yes you are right some thing can only be learned by experience so the older the more leeway. Not enough freedom all the time and then all the freedom of the world is a recipe for disaster to strike." Cathal repleis.

"If the system's fucked there is no protection, then everyone's fucked. Age doesn't matter."

"Well, if a system is fucked than you have two options, the lone wolf or starting small to fix it. There is the saying 'It takes a village to raise a child'. Fixing would start at community level. Working together for a common goal." Cathal give back.

"I know that we're just having a philosophical discussion, but maybe we should keep at least some perspective. We're not talking about broken systems or fecked communities. We're talking about a party. What's really going to happen? We can use last night as an example. They'll drink alcohol, see people naked, maybe get naked themselves. They might have sex! Oh my God!" She tossed up her hands in mock panic. "These are all things they're likely doing anyway somewhere on their own. If they're wanting to go into a party like that, they've probably already done most of those things and know how to avoid the things they don't. And if they haven't yet, their already curious enough that they're likely to. So, what's the difference? It's not like anyone is luring anyone in. And this is an exclusive event in an exclusive place. Everyone is on a guest list."

"I'm sorry. To me, these kinds of protections don't protect anyone. But what it does so is give those excluded something to aspire to. It makes it all the more enticing. Enticing enough to do all of it anyway, just not in front of the people who are pretending that they're preventing something. The silly thing is that most of them all did it themselves when they were that age, and they all survived it just fine."

"You're correct in that those excluded have something to aspire to. I wouldn't agree that they've all done that sort of thing before, there is the standard angle that being illicit just makes it all the more enticing and therefore they'll go and get drunk and somebody might just take advantage, and that may lead to unwarranted complications, even with a mostly selected invite list. "
"The invite list is not totally exclusive there are often plus one's and certainly for the New Year Ball, Mizzurian holds both a staff lottery for a bunch of free tickets, and a Charity lottery for a smaller selection."
"Additionally whilst some things are legal at 16 others are not, and therefore the age limit is in line with other legal restrictions"

In reply to Cathal O'Donoghue (msg # 42):

"Really! A thirteen year old can take down a centuries old institution and rebuild it? No they just label you as a trouble maker, lock you up and toss away the key."

"Peer pressure. If you and your peers are invited to such a party and all go but you do not want to go, but know that all will make fun of you the next morning, then you might do something that is not what you really want." Cathal mentions. "I do not think that such a person will be fine next morning."

"To withstand group pressure you need a certain level let's say of maturity."

"You feel unhappy because nobody had the courage. Now imagine how someone might feel who does something she does not really want to do. Consent can be a tricky problem."

Rhiannon laughed. "You're joking right? I'll grant that for Mizzurian, there are laws to consider, and perhaps a more public attendee list. But here? It has to be more exclusive, and aren't we the ones who make the laws? The government is awful at parenting. Believe me."

"And that 'standard angle' has yet to be refuted. I'll go back to not protecting people from themselves. If they aren't sheltered, they'll be smarter and more self-reliant."



"First, Cathal, all that can happen whether the party is here or at someone's house. But you just revealed what this is all about, and it's patronizing. It's not about the drinking or dancing naked on a bar, is it? It's about sex. And specifically sex for the girls. Like we can't make decisions for ourselves. Yes, drinking makes everyone a bit dumber and more impulsive, but morning after regret is not the end of the world. Do women have agency or are we the cherished property of society. And the possibility of having sex with someone you might not choose to under different circumstances is true for men, women, whether they're sixteen or sixty. So what are you protecting? Purity? While you're at it, why not fidelity? So people are married can be barred also if they're not with their spouse. Are we the house of Amber or the bloody Catholic Church?"

Cathal looks a bit shocked at Rhiannon not knowing first what to reply to that.

"I do not see a difference here between men or women. A 16 year old might regret what does when he is drunken. And I'm not talking about a bit of regret. I'm talking about shame, about self-hate, I'm talking about peers that make fun of you, that tell what happened, who judge and rate. And I'm talking about people who with intention fill others up to make then drunken to make them do things they would not do otherwise."

"And yes fidelity is important in most relationships, because it is about trust. Not many can separate love and sex, not many who can lead an open relationship. If you want that and find someone who is fine with it, no, I have no problem with it. And I have no problem with someone wanting to have fun for a night be it a man or a woman, or if they are 16 or 14 as long as they are mature enough."

"Rhiannon, yes we are the House of Amber, and yes we make the laws, and yes we could set them to anything we wished and the population would have to either adhere to those laws or leave, or possibly take some other action. One thing history has taught us, well at least some of us, is that you have to govern by consent, and apply any laws equally to yourselves as to others."
"The complication here, which doesn't occur directly in Amber, is that we have to deal with a diverse population that expects certain things, and culturally there are differences according to their origins, including adherence to a given religious tenant. There are complications both in Amber, and in Remba, caused mainly by difference in their world views but also by the teachings of The Church of the Unicorn, and behavior which is allowed in Amber is not tolerated in Rebma. Even here there are complications caused by the differences between attitudes in the Medieval town and the Modern Town, so we walk a fine line in trying to balance all views."

In reply to Cathal O'Donoghue (msg # 48):

"Right. So we need laws to prevent people from making victims of themselves. Shame and self-loathing are consequence enough. They'll figure it out. And drugging people to make them do things they normally wouldn't is an actual crime, but that doesn't actually stop it from happening, now does it. And it's okay to have the environment for that to happen? And what about us poor helpless and utterly stupid girls who just can't imagine anyone would do such a thing. Once we turn 18, it's all good I guess. Shame on us for not being smarter. By that logic we should all be kept in our rooms until we're married. Do you not see the absurdity?"

"And the you just made my point for me. Fidelity is just as cherished as chastity and the consequences of violating it is far more disastrous to those involved and society. Yet, married people are allowed into these parties left to their own discretion. It's discretion that alcohol seems to compromise the most. Why aren't we protecting spouses? It's hypocritical, it's obnoxious, and it doesn't work unless it's also tyrannical. "

"Look, I'm simply arguing that we teach rather than forbid. Let people make their mistakes and then help them learn how to move on and make better choices. I can tell you, people are stronger and smarter than you want to believe. They'll learn. The problem is that this attitude of over protection tries to have it both ways. Protect, but if someone makes a mistake, then condemn. And those of us that had to suffer and learn on our own? Well, we don't count. For my part, I managed to avoid most problems because I wasn't coddled and the fear of what could happen if I wasn't smart was forefront in my mind."

In reply to Siobhan (msg # 49):

Siobhan's words visibly cooled Rhiannon's passions for a few moments. The new princess had to consider everything the queen was saying. With Cathal it was easier. He was from not just the same shadow, but the same country. The same city even. She grew up on the streets of Dublin. All that victimization was a daily occurrence, even in the group homes. Yet the laws and attitudes were geared towards blaming and restricting the victims. And those the system failed were simply ignored, like inconvenient truths. The laws were veneers to make the general society feel better.

"Siobhan, I wouldn't presume to know what it's like to govern anything, let alone a mix of cultures like you describe. All I'm saying is that for the pool party in the mansion with a majority modern guest list - all of whom who understood what they're walking into - further discriminating on age seems so arbitrary and hypocritical. Those from cultures who don't like that kind of thing, were not required to attend. And all of these other personal consequences were just as real for those only a couple years older."
This message was last edited by the player at 21:30, Fri 29 Dec 2023.

"Why are you insinuating me, that that I think this goes only for females and male can do what ever they want. I also did no said that someone has to be chaste. Or that it is the victims fault. And it is not oaky if it happens to someone after he or she turned 18."

He shakes his head. "An offender can only be punished after the deed is done. So how to stop before anything happens. And yes it is the easy way out to simply stop someone from going to a place where he or she can be used. It would be so much better to be able to prevent that someone commits things to make someone a victim and so much harder because usually people can not look into other people minds."


"And the pool party, teenager are not equal not even if they are of the same age, the mature fast or slower and someone has to draw a line and says for most of them 18 is a good age that they are mature enough to know what they are doing."
This message was last edited by the player at 22:36, Fri 29 Dec 2023.

"That's not what I said, Cathal. Not at all. You used the word 'she' when you first brought this up. And the chastity statement is what all this is driving towards. No one cares if people get goofy. And you're the one that brought up consent. This was and always is about people getting drunk and having sex. And sex is never viewed as bad for men. And being taken advantage of is usually pretty one sided also. You may not have meant to say it, but this is really what it's about isn't it? So people passing laws to prevent younger people from engaging in sex is enforcing chastity. Because, really, most of the time that sex is 100% consensual. And most of the rest are mostly consensual. Drinking makes it easier or more likely to consent."

"But I think it's clear we have different points of view on this and we're not changing each other's minds. I'm speaking from my experience, which is not yours, so we'll have to agree to disagree."

"You are correct that all those who choose to attend, from whichever cultural background they come from do so by choice, and that if they don't like what they see they are technically free to leave, although Cathal does have a point in that regard relating to peer pressure."

"However, we also have to consider that grey area of 'perception', or more specifically the wider society view of what actually happens at the event in question, which may not be what actually happens at the event. People have a way of elaborating the truth until it becomes a fiction in its own right. So whilst we could have either no restriction at all or even a lower age limit, we choose not to, because of the perception that it may create. As I said we walk a fine line."

"I understand." Rhiannon simply nodded. "I guess my real disagreement is with society. I feel like I'm just learning to swim here, but in my own element, I'm used to coloring outside the lines a bit. But house rules it is. I have no idea what it takes to be the queen."

"Did I hear your say something about a Church of the Unicorn? What's that all about? I don't think Madison would be so keen on people worshiping the beast."

"The Church of the Unicorn is often more of a concept than a reality. You will find buildings scattered throughout Shadow that are both supposedly dedicated to Worshiping the Unicorn or are supposedly protected by its power. The 'Church' was something that Dworkin apparently started, whether he did in actuality is lost to the mysteries of time. The Church supposedly stands for a symbol of the Good and Righteous, a mechanism to aid and protect the downtrodden, and supposedly there are a set of sacred texts, except nobody ever appears to have seen them, at least as far as I've been able to discover. The degree to which people adhere to its supposed teachings or give credence to it varies from place to place. It used to be very popular in Amber but over the last few centuries that popularity has waned. It never gained traction in Rebma, although I believe it used to have some traction and a small following in the Courts."
"Like all myths they are not always based on the truth but a possible interpretation of the truth. Until the war, nobody, other than possibly Dworkin had even encountered the Unicorn, so none knew what we know now of it's reality. In the same way nobody, at least nobody that anybody, with possibly the exception of Dworkin, knew anybody who had encountered the Serpent, although now we know slightly differently, and again nobody even knew of the existence of the Phoenix, other than a few myths amongst certain peoples, or of the Kraken, again other than a few myths."
"Even now what we know of them is scarce and incomplete at best and may not be a complete reflection of their true natures, and may just be our interpretation of it."
"In a similar way to your disagreement with society over age restrictions, Madison has the same disagreement, based on personal experience, over the worship of the Unicorn, and as Cassandra put it, we're like 13 year old children trying to demolish a centuries old institution. There are somethings where trying to change perceptions based on a few peoples knowledge of the truth just isn't going to happen. Perhaps in time its worship will die out of its own accord, although like many cults that may be wishful thinking. There was, and maybe still is, a cult that worshiped the concept of Amber, and revered certain Amberites, in the Courts, a cult based on a mythical perception rather than any form of true reflection of either."
This message was last edited by the player at 01:36, Sat 30 Dec 2023.

"I get it. It's about the ideal. The truth really doesn't matter. I guess that's the basis of all religions. The gods serve the people, or they're ignored and forgotten."

"A most interesting evening. Thank you all."
"One more thing before I retire. There is no manual for how to be a Queen. Thorsten and I never expected to be in the position we found ourselves in, a whole Kingdom to be governed. Did Thorsten make mistakes, yes on several occasions, and on at least one that cost us dearly. Am I likely to make mistakes in future, very possibly. All I can do is listen and do what I feel is right based on the information I have to hand. Should I ever be able to return to Amber then we shall see what the future holds, here I am simply an advisor and Councillor, the final decisions lie with Tiberius, Cordelia, and their respective Governments."

Siobhan will retire to her room at this point, dinner being over.

"Good night, Siobhan"

With the dinner conversation concluded, Rhiannon also rose. "I'll take my leave as well. Time to hit the books, so to speak. This regimen is worse that university, but it's so much more interesting than biochem, embedded social structures, and art appreciation. Should anyone want to chat, I'll be in my room poring over my Trump studies. I'm very much looking forward to the lessons on shadow shifting as Charlie demonstrated."

Rhiannon waved and then headed to her room.

"We see us tomorrow, we can all can meet for a class and discuss what Charlie showed." Cathal suggest and signs Rhia a good night.