In reply to l'Atreq (msg # 796):

You...did see the title of this game, didn't you, l'Atreq?

Pharaoh! ;-) Lololol

A strategic suggestion: If possible, I would strongly recommend that those party members who are able to flee the encounter do so.

Rusk will be willing to remain in place, continuing to engage the wraiths until he falls. For the record, that may not take too many rounds at this juncture, but perhaps it will be enough for most of the party to escape.

The paladin is (naturally) Lawful Good, so attempting to shield the others is in keeping with his alignment and the tenets of the god of protection whom he serves. Speaking as a player, this isn’t an enormous sacrifice. Rusk is now 2nd level in a module in which the minimum level for participation is 5th. Even if he were to miraculously survive this encounter, it’s doubtful that he would last long pressing further into the tomb.

I concur.

You're quite right to call out the level recommendations (6 to 8 pcs of 5th to 7th level) (30 to 56 levels) (You started the encounter with 36 levels).

But you did decide to bypass a major level of the dungeon which was lower in difficulty, and I haven't been able to award exp since November (along with free gems for the taking left behind). There could have been prep as well.

You've got a wand of paralysis and summon insects.
This message was last edited by the GM at 17:19, Yesterday.

I hope you're making a new 5th level character to replace him!

l'Atreq, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You do know that, don't you?

You can't? I thought you could! Guess it's a new 3rd level then!

I know that the sum of levels was a metric that was widely used in AD&D tournaments in the late seventies and early eighties, but I’ve never regarded it as an especially accurate measurement with regard to the capacities of a given party. Characters of fifth or sixth level are inevitably going to be possessed of abilities and durability that those of third level simply do not have. A couple of simple examples: it is at fifth level that both magic users and clerics gain access to third level spells. With regard to turning, a cleric of third level has just gained the ability to turn Type VII undead, if they manage to roll a natural twenty. At fourth level, like l’Atreq, a roll of sixteen or above is required.

In short, (at least in my estimation, whatever that’s worth) having a large group of third to fourth level characters doesn’t inherently mean that they can meet the challenges of a scenario designed for those of fifth to seventh level.

I’ve intentionally avoided reading Pharoah and its associated modules within the Desert of Desolation series. However, I would assume that any preceding areas were still designed with fifth level characters in mind, which I would anticipate would still pose a significant challenge to the current group. That said, I do think it might be wise for those who escape to seek out said area next, as it should prove somewhat less deadly and may provide a much needed increase in earned experience.


I might be mistaken, but I believe that paralysis is likely useless against semi ethereal creatures like wraiths. However, using summon insects is likely a very useful suggestion, in that the swarm might provide a distraction and cover for the party’s retreat.

Paralysation's not on that list.

Yeah, it's hardly a science, tallying up the levels and all that. I have skimmed over the maze encounters and wasn't alarmed by any of them, even considered the level range of the party. Maybe a few deathtraps, sure, but I thought the party would be wise enough to avoid those (it has). There is a lot of exp to gain within the maze and I thought that would propel some of you to 5th level. That was the plan, anyhow.

I thought paralyze WAS a hold person???

This is the closest that OSRIC comes to spelling it out:

I believe that “hold type” includes paralysis, but it is ultimately the DM’s decision whether the wand will specifically effect undead.

Yes, I think that is the standard interpretation.

But it does fire a beam of energy and it's a powerful magic item.

Why would Summon Insects even affect a wraith? Do summoned monsters deal magical damage? What does an incorporeal being care about  small, bitey things?

I don’t think the insects would be capable of harming the wraiths. I was thinking more in terms of the swarm functioning as a concealing cloud or smoke, providing some level of momentary visual distraction to assist in facilitating the party’s flight.

Rusk and his waning life force will unfortunately be the party's saving distraction now.

With the DM suggesting the wands use we have the house rule.  It's been our own assumptions and possibly the DM's unknown ruling that have caused us not to think of the wand as a first solution.  None of that changes our predicament though.


I think it's a little misleading to think of the level range as being 30 to 56 levels.  If we take a party of the minimum characters of the maximum suggest level we get a party of 6 characters of 7th level = 42 combined levels, whilst if we take a party of the maximum suggested characters of the minimum level get get 8 x 5th level = 40 combined levels.

It's just my opinion but I think a party of around 40 combined levels is probably the real intent.

To go in with only 36 levels doesn't look like much less, but the group is more underpowered than it appears, lacking crucial hp, access to better combat tables, better undead turning tables, and better spells, whilst also being underpowered in the number of characters that are throwing the die to determine damage.  In short we're in for a hiding unless magic items make up the difference.  Tomba has a +1 sling, and no brains, so he's a dead halfling walking.

A few comments:
Edit- a LOT of comments.

> "Resolved to no longer play misty with the maze,"

Easter Egg- referring to either the movie 'Play Misty for Me', or the song that features in it.
of which I absolutely adore the Ray Stevens version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSO8IzLkkts

I agree that the wand should not work. Paralyzation is a hold effect. But if the DM is allowing it, I definitely am not going to look a gift camel in the mouth.

I don't think summon insects would do any good- summoned creatures do not count as magic in terms of causing damage, and wraiths need at least silver to hit. The distraction effects- there is no inherent reason they would be immune to distraction, but given they are incorporeal and immune to the spell's damage, it is certainly a fair call that the spell would have no effect at all.

I don't think we can be blamed for bypassing the misty dungeon. We found a secret door and took it. If we had to go through it, that was poor module design on the Hickman's part. I understand that old school generally means you clear one level of a dungeon before going down to the next, but the Hickman's were famed for bringing a less mechanical approach, and taking that secret door seemed less like 'moving to a new dungeon level' and more of a 'you found a secret way to get past the mist'.

And frankly, I was absolutely not enjoying the mists. I could not map, tell where we were going, how far, how long, how much would be left, etc. etc. etc. no matter what we tried, and it was absolutely tedious and frustrating.
"There are three exits."
"We will take the leftmost unchecked passage. And we will always do this until we run into something different/out of place, backtracking through the last taken if we come upon a place we already completely explored."
"I am not going to use that as an algorithm. There are three exits."
"We will take the leftmost unchecked passage."
"There are # exits."
"We will take the leftmost unchecked passage."
"There are # exits."
"We will take the leftmost unchecked passage."
"There are # exits."
"We will take the leftmost unchecked passage."
"All exits explored here."
"We go back the way we came and then take the leftmost unchecked passage from there."
"There are # exits."
"We will take the leftmost unchecked passage."

Why in the world did we have to go through that?
I do not want to sound critical, but why not just take it as an algorithm if the result is the same and saves literally days of repetitiveness? I do not blame you for the dungeon design, but why not speed it up if we have a set method of doing just that?

Level- If it is 6-8 pcs of 5th-7th level, then we are absolutely underpowered for this module. (That was manifestly evident by the fight with the dervishes- as noted, they had more levels (hd) than we did, had a better THAC0 than we did, and hit for more damage than we do since they had dervish bonuses (and we no longer have our weapons specialization), and they outnumbered us. It was literally only the DM letting us change and cast spells different than we had prepared that it did not turn into a TPK.)
If we average the level and number, it would be 7 6th level PCs (42 levels). So if we had 36, we are more than a PC short- and that does not get into the old school mentality where PCs are nearly always expected to have henchmen and hirelings with them, boosting up the level potential.

I do not know if not having xp since November would have made a difference or not, since I don't know how close or far people are. It would have made no difference in V's case.

Leaving the gems- we had no idea of knowing they were free gems for the taking. For all we know the statue was trapped, cursed, or otherwise- and given the number of traps, that was probably a prudent decision, especially since we did talk about picking them while leaving when our objective had been achieved- rather than risk weakening our group to a point we could not achieve the objective. Not having seen a town since we started play, it is not like the any of our treasure is doing much good anyway. And it is also unclear if we are allowed/supposed to loot the temple, or just remove the star gem and the staff.

All that said, I really don't know why we are all running now. It's three wraiths- and that is an encounter we are equipped to handle.

Fodor and V both have magic weapons- I think Rusk does as well? If not, there is a gleaming sword right there in the room- and the one thing old school has taught me is that monsters always keep whatever best defeats them right in their horde for some reason, so I would bet my cute boots that that is an undead slaying sword of some sort. So if Rusk already has a magic weapon- Orum or Tomba could use it if it is not a 2H weapon, even if non-proficiently- something that V did for a long time with the magic sword she carries).
The DM has also said he would allow the wand to paralyze them. Eonwe has multiple magic missile spells prepared. Orum has a color spray. Tarrahn has summon insects, which the DM has also indicate would work- as well as barkskin and shillelagh both of which V suggested casting before we opened the door, and faerie fire. l'Atreq and Eonwe both have bless- again, something V suggested casting beforehand. And the paladin's aura is giving them a -2 to hit. l'Atreq also has a 1 in 4 chance of turning them. Tomba has a magic sling.
Yes, a tough fight and we are going to lose levels (and have). But I see no reason to just sacrifice Rusk to a beatable encounter.

Edit- although a lot less beatable if l'Atreq, Tomba, Orum, and Eonwe run away. And my question to them- where are you going to go?
And as a reminder, running gives them an additional free attack on you at +4 to hit if you are not disengaged from melee. That was what felled V in the previously mentioned fight with the dervishes

Edit2: Also, now that we have disturbed them, we don't know they will stay here. And wraiths fly far faster than any of us run.

Regardless, V is staying. I would much rather end up level drained and become a wraith than go back down and be soul drained wandering through mists for another couple weeks.

Edit: Personally, I think we should have stayed at the Lost City.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:05, Today.

So i took of the 2 hp, now at 9/11, the level, was 2 Illusionist, 3 Thief, now 2/2. For the lost hit die, I am thinking a thief, d6, but that's half........ wanna say 0.5*average d6 of 3.5 = 1.75 becomes 2, so at 9/9? 7/9?

Orum is Seven of Nine!

Okay. Editing!
This message was last edited by the player at 00:08, Today.

I mentioned it in my ic post, but running puts us at greater risk of losing levels.
It gives them a free +4 attack against you.

However, if V can paralyze one of them this round, that's one less.
I don't know their hp, but if Rusk, Fodor, Eonwe's magic missiles, Tarrahn's shillelagh (if he took V's advice and cast it) all hit, Tthat might take another out, or weaken it enough to finish it next round.

If we win initiative, V will try to paralyze again. Again, if it works, and the other has been destroyed in combat, then we do not take any more attacks from them.

If we run, Orum definitely gets attacked again, and possibly some of the others running as well.

Bless won't work, l'Atreq, as we are all already in melee. I can't remember the spell fail rules in AD&D for casting, can we be disrupted in melee?

I'm happy to edit in a turn, I only ran because half the party either ran or said "run!".

Hence, V’s suggestion that we cast it before we go into the room, And you or l'Atreq claiming that you didn’t have a chance to post before the DM moved us in there, but definitely, positively would’ve done so when the suggestion was made. :)

Edit:
“Ah’ve always relied on the kindness of DMs…”
This message was last edited by the player at 00:34, Today.

Please understand, I had thought that since Rusk was the recipient of one of their attacks and the wraiths had struck at two of the other characters, the others could safely flee without immediate danger. My intent was assuredly not to open up anyone to be more easily victimized by the wraiths. My apologies.

Regardless, Rusk will stand and fight. That was always his intent. His blade is a +1 weapon, so it can cause harm to the wraiths. A second level paladin needs a fifteen to hit an enemy of armor class four. Not great odds, but certainly not impossible. Unfortunately, my comments regarding the difficulty of surviving further encounters in the tomb as a second level character stand. But, should Rusk survive, he would still be inclined to press forward despite being weakened.

All said, if the encounter goes badly, my original offer still stands. If Rusk can hold the creatures off long enough for some to flee, and at least a portion of the party survive, I’m game to do so.

Side note: I’ve played a fair amount of AD&D/OSRIC. I never played a paladin until I joined another game run by our DM. That character died from a single hit. Now this. I’m beginning to think that paladins are just a bad class selection for me. :)

I absolutely do not blame ANYONE for running- that's always my first thought when encountering level draining undead too!

And do not think your intent was a bad one, or that it is illogical- in general, it makes sense- those being attacked might tie up the wraiths for others to run. But the DM's comment about the third wraith wafting over the front line to get at others indicates everyone is in melee and at risk of being drained if they run. The DM might ease that and lower the number of fleeing attacks or limit who they can attack, but right now, it is a threat. And it is incredibly noble of you to offer to sacrifice yourself so everyone else can get away.

I agree with you about future chances of survival. I made very similar points about our chances after the aforementioned dervish fight, and that was one of the reasons the DM opened the recruitment to add more players. But it seems we still have issues in terms of balance.

Vixl has found 2 of who knows how many eggs or how far back they go.

Mostly the movie as it was set in Santa Cruz where I went for undergrad.


That might have been the Ravenloft evolution. This one is strictly old-school.


I bet you do have cute boots but that's not a bet I would take.

There is no spell disruption even if you're in melee. That was one of those awful modern D&D mechanics.

AAALLLRight...

Happily for everybody on god's green earth, I am clinician, trained in a wide array of destabilizing de-escalation techniques. I just benefitted from a 7-hr training on this very topic last week. 7 continuing education units locked and loaded! Thus, I, more than anybody, am equipped to provide some sweet, sweet de-escalation.

First, I must demonstrate that I am capable of empathy. To do that, I profess to emphasize with those I have traumatized:

"I hate mazes, too! How awful to be stuck in one! What were those horrible Hickmans thinking?"

Okay, well, something along those lines.

Next, I provide the reasons why I have made you suffer. I think you know those. I pretty much try to run the modules as written for various reasons. I also thought you would think better of the door after Rusk's warning but I misread the room re maze antipathy. I thought we were making pretty decent progress through the Master Maze, as the Hickmans put it.

Having done that...checks notes...ah...I provide options.

Option 1: We keep running this encounter with you all at sixes and sevens.

Option 2: We keep running this encounter with you going all out. The wand will work. Maybe even the insects will as well.

Option 3: We run the "sacrificial paladin" version of this encounter. I specialize in those.

Option 4: We turn back time, with you deciding to mist it out. I expedite the misting.

There was an Option #8 but I forget what 8 was for. Lost god?

In the training, we only had to generate two options. I came up with four. That's why I'm a super clinician!

I don't disagree with anything written, and nor do I think we've played anything wrong.  Most of this was written before LoWD's last post.

In regards to the battle Rusk is swinging a 2 handed sword, in a doorway.  That has got to cut down the options for anyone else to be in the fight, and possibly questionable for the 3rd wraith to just float by.  It's a battle and the swings we roll for are just those that might make it through, not the countless others that are blocked and come to nothing.

Tomba also has a below average INT coupled with an even lower WIS, and these are the first undead he has seen.  Rusk's call to run was wise advice to him.  In trying to play the character as the character, he will be hindering the groups chances to survive, I know that, and he will likely be hunted down and killed himself in the end, but I see no skill in role playing the character if he is played with a higher INT or WIS than what he has.

In that same vein I think you're playing the Paladin well Rusk, they are (I think) the hardest class to play, and I would be quickly dead if I was playing one.

Vixl you mentioned several smart ways to play the encounter, they are good suggestions, but the shit has hit the fan, and I have a hard time organising ourselves in the OOC to circumvent the fog of battle.

I believe we are underpowered for this adventure, but possibly (and without meaning any disrespect) our DM should be adjusting the encounters to reflect the parties levels, as opposed to running it as written now we know we are underpowered.  The games aim is not for the players to always win, but it's not to use them as a punching bag either, and it sounds like this has happened in earlier encounters.  We are all here to have fun.  Perhaps 3 wraiths should have been changed to shadows to better reflect a hard fight for the party but not be such a one sided encounter.  Having just written that I don't think the wraiths can't retrospectively be changed to shadows now, because if they aren't what is the game going to look like when the dust settles.

LoDW - Is I forget what 8 was for referring to the Violent Femmes song Kiss Off?

Tomba- I think that it is generally accepted that when a door is opened, unless specified otherwise beforehand or we see something obviously deadly like a floor made of lava, the party moves in rather than stays outside the room.
When encounters are in our favor in a room, we go straight to the attack- we don't talk about spending our first round moving into the room, or having some characters have to maneuver, etc. So for consistency's sake, that would apply here as well- meaning I don't think this was a situation of Rusk being the only one at the doorway and keeping everyone else out. (That said, given his warning, this might have been one of those time we should have specified we were not going in until assessing the situation.)

As much as I would prefer that the people up front protect the people in the back and middle, wraiths are not physical, so I don't see a problem with them moving through the ranks to attack whomever they want- how can you block something you can't touch?

I cannot make any judgment on how you play your character. If you think you would run because someone told you to do it, fine. If you think the gleaming sword is the magic direction sword you were looking for and charge in to make a kamikaze attack on the undead, fine. If you just stand around and cheerlead, also fine. If you decide Tomba would attack the wraiths with a non-magic sword since it's the first time he has seen undead and does not know his sword is useless, fine. It's your character to play.
But since you specifically used the word 'hinder' I would ask you to not do something that would actively hurt/hinder everyone else- being true to your character is not reason enough to spoil things for others. And I don't consider running away actively hindering the group, unless you do so after promising to do something else. While running is not the best thing for the group, it's a tactic, and sometimes all you can do. I am talking about specifically being an ass, doing things detrimental to the group like wrecking items we need, intentionally screwing up negotiations, etc. It's a social game, so we all have to bend a little to keep it fun.

I don't think the shit has hit the fan. We are not even one round into the encounter. Nobody is down, nobody is out, the DM has not adjudicated our actions yet. While you might not want to ooc table talk to discuss actions, that's fine. You don't have to do so, and again, Tomba is free to do whatever you want him to do. But there is no reason that those who do want to discuss some things should not do so- if we were at an actual table, there would not have been so much fog. We would have precast a lot of those spells, since V would have gotten an answer by talking specifically to the player, rather than hoping people saw the post before the encounter started, etc. We just have different philosophies, but there is no reason they cannot coexist as long as we are not going out of our way to harm the other.

And I think you definitely found that Easter Egg!

DM- coincidentally, I was just watching that movie not that long ago. It showed up as a recommendation for me on Netflix, and I heard good things about it, but never saw it, so gave it a try.

Fair enough on this being straight old school rather than more narrative- from their wiki page, it is essentially the first thing they brought to TSR, so perhaps before they developed their signature style, and it has no input from Weis, either.

OSRIC does have spell disruption- if the caster takes damage in melee, then the spell is lost. (pg 122 in my copy):
"Spells: Spell casting begins in the spell caster’s initiative segment, and the spell is completed at the end of the casting time. It is possible to cast a spell while within melee range of an opponent (10 ft), but if the spell caster suffers damage while casting a spell, the spell is lost."

Are you not using this? That's important to know, since that means we also cannot disrupt enemy casters.

I actually LIKE mazes. I like the exploration, mapping it out, seeing and discovering the turns and twists, etc. But not being able to map just made it seem more akin to 'randomly encounter this' after 'randomly encountering that'. It's like doing a puzzle- putting it together is satisfying. Sometimes a piece doesn't fit, and you have to try something else. But if you are just looking at the individual pieces, and then putting it back in the box, well... not as much fun. And even if you manage to look at all the pieces that way, you still don't get the picture.

I took Rusk's warning as a 'prepare yourself, get your spells precast, drink potions of you need them, etc.' not 'don't go this way'.
But yes, I was serious saying V would rather go die against the wraiths than go back to the misty area.

As for the options- I have to say I am incredibly grateful to you for offering them (I was just hoping for some leeway on having precast bless and shillelagh!). You didn't have to do so, but I truly do appreciate the empathy and understanding. I would never say you should bail us out from our own bad decisions, but I do appreciate that you are willing to show flexibility.

Between the four options, despite HATING the mist, I would prefer 4, since that keeps Orum and Rusk from losing their levels. If you are expediting it, I can put up with it. And since you have clarified that the module and you intended for us to go through it, then I suppose we should go through it.

The only option I would reject would be 3. Despite his offering to do so, I don't want to sacrifice one of the PCs unnecessarily. I don't even want to sacrifice summoned monsters (and this would be a good place to have summoned monsters, as opposed to using it in a room just to trigger traps so we can gather a few coins).

Option 1 and 2 are fine, although I don't understand what you mean by us all at sixes and sevens. Maybe that's an Easter egg to be deciphered.
This message was last edited by the player at 03:17, Today.