I think a talk about our friendship & motivation for leaving might be the catalyst I need to build a character - the story approach.

One thing I am thinking is moving from Bonisagus to Tremere - the key is really with you, Founder's Ghost - is your Tremere a sketchy group with low esteem and a nefarious agenda?  Or is it a structure = power type place?
If the former, then Bonisagus is my house.  Friderich, being a bit older, was at one point a proctor of a lab, and floor guardian for some younger members, and befriended P2 along the way.  Who can forget being chased by Klaus for stealing cheese - and the fumbled spell that made the kitchen cat into a rat?  At least temporarily...

As we grew up within the Covenant, we later worked together as I was a tutor, trying - somewhat successfully? - to help 'break' his Ex Mis mind to that of a proper scholar.  While it didn't work, we came to an understanding, and I learned something about the Arcane.

It could be as well then, as I had completed my gauntlet, that I was accused of helping you with yours.  A charge unfounded, and though even while I was ultimately cleared of that, some whiff of disrespectability remains.

And that could be why - if you're _just_ out of your gauntlet, that you and I are to travel together?


-OR-

As House Tremere, I have at times, growing up in the covenant, worked with him, and we are friendly, if not friends.  As I became more entrenched in Tremere, my mentor, the witch Margilt, often had me focus on where I could gain my advantage - a point that brings other points into focus.  I began to look at who I could work with, who I could trust, who could help me, Tremere, and all Magi be better and stronger.  P2 - of course.  A man with no agenda, and who, because of an...issue with his gauntlet, is open to the idea of a sojourn.

House Tremere - and Margilt - will provide some of the backing, but there is a place or three to the East that needs looking into...

In reply to P1 (msg # 16):

I have to admit one of the things I don't like about 5ed Cannon is the treatment they gave Tremere.  It just seemed to be the preferred house for many of the line developers.  They seemed to write Tremere as the house where everyone's toned and has perfect hair.

My take on Tremere is that they are a structure=power type in principal.  But in organizations like theirs, there's all these little crevices the sketchy can hide.

In other words, yes Tremere talks the talk.  As to whether they walk the walk is a magi by magi basis.

Ok, well - maybe l could get a hint from you ?  Generally prefer a social, diplomatic PC - ambitious, bright, too clever for his own good.  If you feel like Margilt and I are Boni, great.  If you like some of the machinations of Tremere, then great!

P2 - do you have a preference for friends vs partners vs acquaintances?

In reply to P1 (msg # 18):

I can work with what you like.  'Emrys' has a few motivations to go out to search for a place to make a new covenant...not the least is that he's at the bottom of the social status ladder (making founding a covenant easier than joining an established one).

Part of Friderich's motivation for doing the road trip with Emrys is of course 'safety in numbers' and he found a interested (or desperate) party in Emrys (regardless of the status of their relationship) but the larger question in my mind is why does Friderich take to the road?  It'd be far less risky to play the Gild game and find a spot in a nice safe covenant in the Rhine tribunal.

Oh....side note... the initial turb of grogs.  How are they recruited or connected to us?  Friends, 'assigned'/gifted by mother covenant, some other connection?
This message was last edited by the player at 19:19, Wed 15 Feb 2023.

First, are ya'll set on the names "Fredrich" and "Emrys"?  If so, I'll get your names switched over.

Second, Fredrich/P1:  it sounds to me that you are leaning towards a social/political character.

If you go Tremere, the pros/cons as I see them are:

-You will have a superior.  So expect to get some orders at some point
-You may be able to leverage the Tremere's network on occasion.
-Some players really like the whole "work your way up the ranks" aspect. 

Pros/Cons of the Bonisagus route as I see them:

-You have more control over your own agenda
-You do not have as much House support for your agenda

My personal choice would be the Bonisagus route.  But that's me.  I've always been more of a Tytalus guy than a Tremere guy.

The Grogs.  I'd like you each to come up with two grogs a piece for a total of four.

First, I'd like for you to run each other's shield grogs.  You can assume these grogs were issued to your magi from Fengheld's troops and that grog is now the magi's to control.  Consider it a perk for being part of Fengheld.

Second, I'd like two other grogs and that's a bit up to you two to decide. I'd recommend one more soldier and maybe one servant.  Some additional muscle and someone who can act as your agent in dealing with the mundane folks.  But that's a suggestion.  I wouldn't try designing a craftsman or anything like that.  Leave that for post-game/covenant building.

Questions?

In reply to The Founder's Ghost (msg # 20):

On names, it's been a while but parens give their apprentices names don't they?  So a magi has a birth name (and potential arcane connection) and a name their master gave them typically?

In reply to P2 (msg # 21):

Typically, yes.  The parens gives the magi a new name, though most masters allow their apprentice some say in the matter.

In reply to The Founder's Ghost (msg # 22):

Emrys then. 

On a grog related note past the shield grogs...one a burly teamster (to fill the 3rd combatant slot) or blacksmith?  Or should we go with 1 'face' grog for the mundanes and keep the other one tightly combat focused?

The Gentle Gift in the cards for Fridrich?

Okay.  You guys names should be updated.

Couple of housekeeping items I should have gone over before.  Sorry.

I am generally offline Wednesdays and one day during the weekend.  I do try to check boards at least once a day, five days a week.  If I know I will be offline other than that, I will post an update.

Just updated your names.  So you should be Frederich and Emrys now.

Questions on the magi building or anything up until now?

Thanks.

Ok - A gentle gift sounds great, but I am feeling some hierarchy, so im going to opt Tremere.

I have one last place to look for my AM pdfs, but if not there, I'll need a hand.

In reply to Frederich (msg # 25):

Are you saying that you're planning on taking the Gentle Gift with Fridrich (you may only pick up to one major hermetic virtue) or that it sounds great that one of us has the gentle gift?  I'm fine with taking it with Emrys unless you want to take it.

Here's a link index of all the published virtues for Ars Magica by Atlas btw...

https://www.atlas-games.com/pd...rage/ArM5VFIndex.pdf

I usually whip up my own sheet but here's an ArM5th sheet I snagged from rpol's resource thread.


Character:                          | Decrepitude:        | Warping:
Player:                             |                     |
Age:       Size:    Confidence:     |                     |
------------------------------------|                     |
Birth Name                          |                     |
Year Born                           |                     |
Gender                              |                     |
Race/Nationality                    --------------------------------------------
Place of Origin                       Height                Weight
Religion                              Hair                  Eyes
Title/Profession                      Handedness
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHARACTERISTICS                     | ABILITIES        SPECIALTY     SCORE   XP
                                    |
Intelligence:    0                  |
Perception:      0                  |
Strength:        0                  |
Stamina:         0                  |
Presence:        0                  |
Communication:   0                  |
Dexterity:       0                  |
Quickness:       0                  |
                                    |
------------------------------------|
VIRTUES                             |
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
FLAWS                               |
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PERSONALITY TRAITS                  | REPUTATIONS         TYPE       SCORE   XP
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ARMOR                 SOAK     LOAD


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FATIGUE                             |  WOUNDS
             PEN   RECOV            |                 PEN   RANGE
Fresh                      X        | Light Wounds    -1      1-5
Winded         0   2 min            | Medium Wounds   -3     6-10
Weary         -1  10 min            | Heavy Wounds    -5    11-15
Tired         -3  30 min            | Incapacitated         16-20
Dazed         -5   1 hr             | Dead                    21+
Unconscious        2 hr             |
                                    |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WEAPONS                       INIT     ATK     DFN     DAM     LOAD    RANGE

Dodge
Fist
Kick

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EQUIPMENT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MAGICAL ARTS

TECHNIQUE     SCORE  XP | FORM            SCORE  XP  | FORM           SCORE  XP
Creo            0     0 | Animal             0    0  | Ignem             0    0
Intelligo       0     0 | Aquam              0    0  | Imaginem          0    0
Muto            0     0 | Auram              0    0  | Mentam            0    0
Perdo           0     0 | Corpus             0    0  | Terram            0    0
Rego            0     0 | Herbam             0    0  | Vim               0    0

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SPELLS

(Example)
Frosty Breath of the Spoken Lie, InMe 20 (+23), Eye/Conc/Ind
AM5 p.149
Mastery 1 (5) : Penetration

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
POSSESSIONS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In reply to Emrys (msg # 26):

Well we both don't need it!  I am always best as an interactive character, so I was thinking of taking it.  A generalist is also my style, so not being called to focus on one art or form suits me too.

I would like to sketch out more our relationship.  Are you covenant born or recent?  What ideas do you have about our connection? You more a free spirt kinda ExM? Or a buck-authority kinda ExM?

Emrys will have a reputation as a 'troublemaker' in hermetic circles but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a full on 'buck the authority' type either.  His curiosity and adventurous nature would likely be more the source of his troublemaker rep.  That said he'd also be a bit devoted to founding and building up a covenant.
I haven't decided yet to go with a 'Hedge Wizard' reputation.  I'm leaning against it I think but I'm cool Frederich (or Fridrich?) taking the lead/face job as far as relations with the Order of Hermes/other covenants is concerned.  Internally we can sort out those dynamics as play progresses but Frederich at least starts as the 'senior partner' of the pair;-).

Emrys is not covenant born and his master brought him in at a young age after poaching\kidnapping him somewhere in the Byzantium Empire (iirc they call themselves Roman).  His native tongue is Greek though he'd have at least some German but he'll have Latin at 4 (at least) for a lingua franca.

He will not be a lab rat magi.  He will have the Seeker flaw (You are a self-proclaimed member of the Seekers, a loose organization of competitive magi searching for ancient magic and arcane artifacts. Much of your life is spent in pursuit of these items. Your interests may occasionally clash with other interests of your House.).  All thing considered, founding a Covenant takes priority but Emrys will be motivated towards that sort of stuff.

Beyond that, his Ex Miscellanea tradition has something to do with the Titans.  Still nailing down details but between being a seeker and this is the major reason why I'm leaning against a 'hedge wizard' reputation.  He may be a bit Tytalus adjacent.

As far as Emrys relations with Frederich, well with the age difference we probably aren't quite Mutt & Jeff;-).  Though friendship is workable...the idea that Frederich was tasked to tutor the idiot new kid Latin (and/or German) works as a foundation for their relationship.  Post Gauntlet, Emrys may not quite be given the GTFO boot but circumstances mean he can't stay at Fengheld and joining an existing covenant a very unlikely option with the hint that he 'should go make trouble somewhere else, preferably in another tribunal';-).

Founding a new covenant with Frederich can be something they talked about (and planned for) and given that Emrys is no longer an apprentice, the trigger can finally be pulled on those plans.  Or Frederich just wants some safety in numbers as he follows-up on something he's discovered in his time at Fengheld.  Or as a Tremere he's been instructed to set up something to the East and his acquaintance with Emrys and that Ex Miscellanea's circumstances made him an easy recruit.  I'm fine if there are ulterior motives in the mix.

In reply to Emrys (msg # 29):

ok cool!  I am seeing Friderik as coming to the covenant, a youngster from a good, but large family, a barge captain's family along the Elbe, under the employ of the Archbishop of Magdeburg.  But young Friderik never was...right, somehow, and it was probably through connections of his father, and from there, maybe one of his men, that the boy was sent discreetly to Fengheld.  With his father absent for long stretches, and his family so large, being unnoticed was somewhat common to the lad, and adapting to covenant life came quickly.  That, and his affable nature, willingness to structure, and - as some elders would describe it - his mediocre gift, made him an apt choice to work with newcomers, and provide an extra set of eyes and ears when dealing with some mundane folk.

It was in this manner that he met with Emrys - the latin, the incident with Klaus and the giant rat, that time they went and visited Erfurt under the guise of looking for a perfect stollen for christmas.  Though not religious per se, knowledge of custom is critical...and stollen is delicious.

Regardless, for Friderik, I think the real turn of the relationship into a trust-based was prior to his gauntlet, he would practice his parma and certamen with Emrys, in part because Emrys had different ways of approaching spellcasting, but also because he felt that Emrys would know when to stop, because even though he was older and stronger, magic was not to be taken lightly...

Additionally, with his wider view of the world, owing to his gentle gift, and him also not being a lab rat, especially, he's found, not working for another's experiments (caughMargilt) and perhaps on the suggestion - or 'request' - from his parens or from another source inside Tremere, he too is interested in the eastern frontiers, and perhaps building something anew!

OCC: I know nothing of these seekers, but if it makes sense to have us both a part of that, I accept.

I will need some help in character creation - the only pieces of my AM collection I've found are AM3...

But I'm simple & not very particular.  I am joining the Ars Magicaa club here, so I bet I can get some help there, but would rather work with one of you, if you have the time.

In reply to Frederich (msg # 30):

Okay, maybe they are a little Mutt & Jeff like;-).

With Fridrich the more 'respectable' of the pair.

One suggestion for an Ars character is to at least pick a form and technique to sort of specialize in from the start.  You can generalize after but you'll want something your good at from the start.

I'm not taking this virtue due to background) but it's one you might consider (and it's popular with starting Rhine tribunal players-

(Gild) Trained: You have been trained for a number of seasons at the covenant of Durenmar during the end of your apprenticeship in the Rhine Tribunal. In addition to a season of training by a magus of House Bonisagus, you have also been inducted into one of the Rhine’s political gilds, receiving two or more seasons of training by one of its masters. You gain an additional 30 experience points, which may be spent on Order of Hermes Lore, Intrigue, and Durenmar Lore (or, rarely, the Lore of another covenant where you were trained by your gild). You gain a further 60 experience points that may be spent on any General or Arcane Abilities, Arts, and spells (one point per level) that are appropriate to
your gild. For example, the Ash Gild Trained Virtue can confer Hunt, Penetration, and battle magics, whereas Elder Gild Trained might grant Etiquette, Faerie Lore, and faerie spells. This extra training may negate the effect of the Weak Parens Flaw, in which case the Virtue and Flaw cancel out and both can be dropped. With the approval of the storyguide, it may be combined with the Skilled Parens Virtue.

This Virtue is not compulsory for Rhine magi — not all magi apprenticed here opt to receive this training and join a gild immediately, although many do. A magus who joins a gild post-apprenticeship usually still receives gild training, but in this case the Virtue should not be taken instead the magus must spend seasons of time to be trained, for which experience points are gained as usual according to the Long Term Events chapter of Ars Magica 5th Edition.

----
We're leaving the Rhine tribunal behind but the various Gilds can help you shape some things.  They're named after trees.  I can copy & paste some snippets up if interested.

Frederich:  tried finding some online stuff about Seekers.

https://www.redcap.org/page/Seeker

https://www.redcap.org/page/Ancient_Magic

But the upshot is Seekers are searching for lost magical lore.  They are the Hermetic version of Indiana Jones.  Or Howard Carter if you're more reality minded.

And will be happy to give you all the help I can.  Sounds like Emrys is as well.  As a heads up, we may yet get that third player, and he will be completely new to AM.  Will keep you posted.

My personal theory is to start with your virtues and flaws.  The link Emrys provided is a good place to start.  Though, it will not give you the details on what the Vs/Fs listed mean.

You get Minor Magical Focus (Certamen) for free.

There were some changes and consolidations between 3rd and 5th, but the upshot is:

Minor Virtues/Flaws are worth 1 point (Virtues cost a point/Flaws gain you a point, etc.)

Major Virtues/Flaws are worth 3 points

Gentle Gift is a major Hermetic virtue.  So you're already at 3 points.

You mentioned that you came from a large family.  Since you have a gentle gift, and you mention he has a good relationship with his family, you can take the story flaw "Close Family Ties".  From the book:  Your family is one of the most important things in your life, and still supports and aids you whenever possible, even at personal risk. Family members do not hesitate to do you any favor that is within their power, and can call on their friends and neighbors to help you. It works both ways, however; your family may require help from you some day.

You could also say some of your grog characters come from Frederich's family.

"Close Family Ties" is a minor flaw.

That's a suggestion.

Without worrying about what virtue/flaw it is, list two strong points and two weak points you think Frederich has.  Ones that could get him in trouble and help him get out of it.  They can be personality traits, strong physique, some aspect of magic you'd think he'd excel at, etc.

I guess another question is there something about House Tremere you really like and want to play out?

Atlas' stewardship is a little different from Lion Rampart/White Wolf that they aren't quite as focused on stereotypes that would be the hallmark of latter White Wolf products.  Tremere are still a bit of a hierarchy type group as Ghost laid out in his pros/cons list.

Honestly, with Emrys a Tytalus may work better since the Tytalus could have had closer relations with an Emrys' Ex Miscellanea master (who as I mentioned is Titan focused).  They could have been fellow members of a Titan focused mystery cult (perhaps more an offshoot of the Titanoi, House Tytalus & Tremere had a common master...Guorna the Fetid...Tremere are more necromancy focused and on the priesthood of Pluto while Tytalus 'sought out those spirits imprisoned in the Underworld by those gods'...the titans).

If Emrys and Fridrich are more friends than that would be a very easy tie-in.  We wouldn't necessarily be initiated members into the mystery cult but our masters could be.  And Fridrich got tied up in Emrys' trouble that going to parts unknown made sense for both of them.

As far as the seeker flaw...you just have to declare you are one.  It's sort of like an archaeologist/scholars drive to uncover lost magical secrets and while I think Seekers can cooperate there is some competition among them.  Not sure if that is what you want.

In reply to Emrys (msg # 33):

Emrys has a good point.  Some of the Houses got a real make over by Atlas.  Tremere isn't as sweeping, but there are some changes.  One is Atlas did away with the whole Vampire corruption point.

Another thing is Atlas' version of Tremere is much more of a detailed paramilitary organization.  That was where my observation in the pros/cons came from.  That's not a bad thing at all.  But the whole hiearchy thing is much more set in stone.  What I think is the best summation of the Atlas version of Tremere comes from their write up in Houses of Hermes:

"House Tremere would like to rule the world. This
attitude alienates many of their sodales. Their desire for
domination is not, however, born directly from pride.
Tremere magi believe that a global government would
make life less chaotic. Fewer tragedies would occur, and
crises would swiftly dealt with. Great accomplishments
would be easier if magi pooled their efforts. The
Tremere magi do not, however, trust anyone else to rule
the world wisely"
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:40, Sat 18 Feb 2023.

And since I mention Houses of Hermes: True Lineages, here is a blurb from that book about recommended V/Fs for Tremeres:

Some other virtues have a particular resonance with
the history of the House:

• All Tremere magi have a Minor Magical Focus in
Certamen. This makes them excellent duelists, but
means that they cannot, age for age, match the power
of other magi with similar interests. Like their
Founder, they work around this problem with diplomacy, preparation and supporters.

• Most of the House’s practitioners of Mercurian magic
died in the Tempest, the decisive battle of the Schism
War. Four hundred years on, their descendants still
exist, but the virtue is not required for membership of
the House.

• The Heir, Mentor and Close Family Ties virtues can
be used to modify a Tremere magus’s relationship
with his tribune or conciliarius, with the Storyguide’s
approval.

• Entrancement, Skilled Parens, Piercing Gaze, Self
Confident, Second Sight, Social Contacts, Cautious
Sorcerer and Temporal Influence are common, as are
affinities in Guile, Bargain and Finesse.

• The Shapeshifter and Skinchanger virtues may
explain some of the stories about the wolves of
Coeris. Tremere Shapeshifters also often take the
form of owls.

• Dark Secret (Diedne Magic) is not appropriate for
Tremere characters. Tremere is the House most likely to react violently to the re-emergence of a druidical lineage of magi.

• Berserk magi cannot fight to doctrine and so are ineffective soldiers.

The attitude of the House toward most characters
with Flaws is based on the magus’s capacity to serve as a
soldier in times of crisis. Few Tremere magi would accept
an apprentice with any of the following flaws: Hedge
Wizard, Faerie Upbringing, Noncombatant, Softhearted,
and Reclusive. A Weak Parens would not train a child,
although a master might become Infamous during or after
an apprenticeship. Apprentices with physical disabilities,
or who are Tainted with Evil, would not be selected for
training, but those who developed these flaws after they
were accepted might not be sold to other Houses. Magic
Addiction, Painful Magic, Fury and many physical disabilities prevent a magus from serving effectively, and most
Tremere magi would see them as humiliating.
A second group of flaws make a magus suboptimal on
the battlefield, but can be hidden by sufferers. They are
likely a cause of embarrassment, particularly if they seem
to indicate a lack of self-control. These flaws include
Rigid Magic, Short-ranged Magic, Unstructured Caster,
Careless Sorcerer, Slow Magic, Unpredictable Magic,
Warped Magic, Weak Magic, Weird Magic, Weakness,
Afflicted Tongue, Motion Sickness, No Sense of
Direction, Obese, Palsied Hands, Poor Eyesight, Poor
Hearing.
The Clumsy Magic flaw would cripple a Tremere
magus in sagas that use the dueling rules provided later in
this chapter.
The Favors flaw creates an obligation in addition to
that caused by membership of the House.

---

Please note, I provide this info just to help you with ideas.  I am not requiring you to stick to cannon per se. So if you wanted to take Faerie Upbringing, I wouldn't quibble about it.

Yeah...looks like metacreator is scrubbed everywhere.  I looked a lot of places to see if anyone squirreld away a copy, but nope.

Anyway this site will help you calculate points for your ArM5 pc

https://rpg.ekkaia.org/ampcc/

Thanks! I did sign up for the free AM4 from Atlas, and do have the AM spreadsheet...but that still puts me a bit behind as far as building a PC.  I expect that it'll be vastly easier when/if AM4 arrives.  I remain willing to work with folks to build characters swiftly.

I am using the Grugulator (https://och.nu/tesla/AM/grog.html)

And here's one of my favorite candidates for a shield grog

Characteristics
Int 2 Str 0 Pre -1 Dex 2
Per 1 Stm -1 Com -1 Qik 2

Traits
Score
Calm 1
Easily Offended 1
Brave 2

2 Athletics

4 Awareness

1 Bargain

5 Charm

5 Folk Ken

3 Guile

Language:
Czech
5
Lore:
Holy Roman Empire 4

Lore:
Weather phenomena 1

Profession:
Guard 2

Ride 4

Weapons: Single 4

Just an autocreaate, but a nice character - Evžen, 27, M, originally from near Brno.  Blonde hair, soft brown eyes, and speaks Czech and German

In reply to Frederich (msg # 37):

He seems less a shield grog and more a "face" man.  He's better at talking to people than he is with his single weapon.  That said, my only question is "Guard" as a Profession.  I just can't think of what skill set that would encompass.  He already has Awareness.  Off the top of my head, I would think that would cover anything that the Profession: Guard would cover.  Maybe it was covered in a supplement and I'm forgetting about it.

But in any case, I'd say reassign the points in Guard to something else. You may also want to consider bumping the Folk Ken and Charm a level.  But that's a general suggestion.  I think the basics are good for a "Hey You. Go Talk To 'Em" guy.

Grogs can have up to 3 points Virtues/Flaws.  They're not required, but can give them more depth or add some bonuses to areas as needed.

If you took Puissant (Charm or Folk Ken), you'd give that single ability a +2.  So you could knock the score down to a 3 or 4, apply the bonus, and end up with a total score of 5 or 6.  Then you can apply those XP you freed up from downgrading the score to other abbilites.

I highly recommend taking something like Tough for a grog.  That +3 bonus to soak can save his life.

As far as flaws to pay for whatever virtues you may consider, I'd say it would depend on his personality. Maybe he's a bit too sociable and has a Weakness (Pretty Face).

Anyway, I think you've got a good start to a good Grog.  Let me know if I can answer any questions.  Thanks.

Please welcome P3 to the game.  He is new to Ars Magica in general.  So please help him out as you can.  Say hello P3.

We're looking at having him start off as a companion character.  We'll start sketching things out.  I was thinking of recommending a non-magi Redcap.  Thoughts from Frederich and Emrys?

Thanks Ya'll.

In reply to The Founder's Ghost (msg # 39):

Welcome to the game;-)

Non-magi redcaps are cool with some interesting choices including enchanted items.