{ Out of Character Chat } (24 Jun 06 - 24 May 08)   Posted by DM.Group: 0
Orken Badaxe
 player, 100 posts
 Dwarf
 What are you lookin' at?
Mon 17 Mar 2008
at 04:02
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
But one really shouldn't drink and DM...
Gwydion Redleaf
 player, 262 posts
 Rash and Aloof
Mon 17 Mar 2008
at 16:12
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
Why not?
Tanindara Briacat
 player, 169 posts
Mon 17 Mar 2008
at 18:21
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
Less likely to notice when the players roll their dice and say, "Ouch!  Oh, no...that's awful.  I just rolled a...uh..." sees the number of empty bottles in front of the GM  "Er, natural twenty, again."
Gwydion Redleaf
 player, 263 posts
 Rash and Aloof
Mon 17 Mar 2008
at 20:12
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
But also more likely to just go with it when the fighter says, "I jump onto my towershield and use it as a toboggan to surf down the front of the avalanche until I can work my way over to the side."

It's a real pickle.  Either way has risks and benefits!
Orken Badaxe
 player, 101 posts
 Dwarf
 What are you lookin' at?
Tue 18 Mar 2008
at 11:18
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
*Reads DM description from cast listing*

Cruinne drinks and DMs... O.O
DM
 GM, 779 posts
 Game Dungeon Mistress
Tue 18 Mar 2008
at 14:02
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
Oh do I ever.  And really, that explains a lot, doesn't it.
DM
 GM, 782 posts
 Game Dungeon Mistress
Tue 18 Mar 2008
at 15:50
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
Here's a puzzle for everyone.  I've been staring at the Basic rules trying to read intent on attacks from behind, as the grammar is (I believe) clear, but seems logically inconsistant.

There are only two places I can find in the Basic Rules where attacks from behind are mentioned.

The first is under the information on PC Classes, under the Thief class:
    When striking unnoticed from behind, a thief gains a bonus of +4 on "to hit" rolls and inflicts twice the normal amount of damage.

That's pretty clear.

The second is under the information on Retreats, in the section on Combat:
    Any movement backwards at more than ½ the normal movement rate is a retreat. If a creature tries to retreat, the opponent may add +2 to all "to hit" rolls, and the defender is not allowed to make a return attack.  In addition to the bonus on "to hit" rolls, the attacks are further adjusted by using the defender's Armor Class without a shield.  (Any attacks from behind are adjusted in the same manner.)


Now, strictly reading this for its grammar, this means that only the shield adjustment is made for most people's attacks from behind, and the +2 only comes into play if the person being attacked from behind is also fleeing.  However, I'm not convinced that the editing of D&D books was ever very clear (errors abound!), especially on fine points like that.

So, what are your interpretations and wishes?  Would the thieves' bonus stack with this shieldless bonus?  Also let me know if you find any other information in the Basic rules on attacks from behind.

This message was last edited by the GM at 15:54, Tue 18 Mar 2008.

Tanindara Briacat
 player, 170 posts
Tue 18 Mar 2008
at 16:06
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
Overall, I think the two situations look `stackable' - thieves know how to attack from behind, specifically, so turning your back on one is necessarily a bit of an extra risk.  (Unless, of course, they're your own Loyal Teammate.  You just keep your attention in that sarcophagus, Ildrulf.  Nothing to worry about!)  It does seem logical to me that any backstab (especially with the `unnoticed' part) would ignore shields generally - shields are for blocking, and it's hard to block somebody you don't even know is there.  On the other hand, it's more to think about, and that gets irritating, especially in basic D&D which is supposed to be a little bit more, you know, on the `basic' side of things...so speaking as a Thief, I'll affirm that I wouldn't be upset if this wasn't always factored in.  (Maybe they happened to drop their arm at the right moment, or something, right?)

But I would point out that the thief might have some trouble counting as "unnoticed" by a retreating enemy.  People are usually pretty aware of whatever they're running away - er, strategically retreating from.  Even admitting that they're also pretty specifically not looking that way...unless the thief was able to really stay out of the fight up until the retreat began (in which case, I'd say people might well be unaware of them, and certainly unaware of them as combatants), I'd require a successful Move Silently check to get up behind one unnoticed.
Gwydion Redleaf
 player, 264 posts
 Rash and Aloof
Tue 18 Mar 2008
at 16:14
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
Well, depending on the circumstances, I could make an argument for Hide in Shadows - either in addition to OR instead of Move Silently. 

Combat is usually very noisy and most people who survive etheir first one or two combat episodes are very aware of what is going on around them... the ones that don't are usually dead or greivously wounded.
Orken Badaxe
 player, 103 posts
 Dwarf
 What are you lookin' at?
Tue 18 Mar 2008
at 17:05
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
By the letter of the rule, if I understand basic D&D, you only remove the shield bonus to AC for an opponent when attacking them from behind under normal circumstances. As to stacking, I see no reason to think they do not in the case of a thief vs. a foe in full retreat if the “unnoticed“ criteria is met as well.

Labyrinth Lord is my source.

Old edition rule sets are notorious for not covering everything and leaving things to GM judgment. I am thinking outside the box in game during the current round and will be happy with what ever you rule as I trust you to look after the fun, long term and short.
DM
 GM, 783 posts
 Game Dungeon Mistress
Tue 18 Mar 2008
at 18:16
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
And don't forget the question I didn't directly ask, heehee.  Silly me!

Does a normal attack from behind get the +2 as well as the lost shield, or just the lost shield?
Gwydion Redleaf
 player, 266 posts
 Rash and Aloof
Tue 18 Mar 2008
at 18:42
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
According to what's already above, I'd say a 'standard' attack from behind just avoids the shield.  The person isn't fleeing, so the add'l +2 wouldn't apply.
Orken Badaxe
 player, 104 posts
 Dwarf
 What are you lookin' at?
Tue 18 Mar 2008
at 18:51
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
Orken Badaxe:
... you only remove the shield bonus to AC for an opponent when attacking them from behind under normal circumstances.


*:oP at DM*

I agree with Gwydion. I am not the master of the rules you are Ms DM. I only have a retro-clone to look things up in. I trust you. Have a shot and do your best-worst. I cry with the best of em... O.O
Ildrulf Versalain
 player, 448 posts
 Play nicely, or my sister
 will hit you with a rock.
Tue 18 Mar 2008
at 19:51
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
I'd agree with Gwydion and Orken...
Tanindara Briacat
 player, 171 posts
Tue 18 Mar 2008
at 20:42
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
I agree unreservedly with Lendor.  He looks lonely.
Gwydion Redleaf
 player, 267 posts
 Rash and Aloof
Tue 18 Mar 2008
at 21:40
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
And now I definitely agree with Orken since Redleaf can't seem to hit the broad side of a ship.... and the evil, nefarious priest knows exactly who hit him with a magic missile.

:-O
Quanfinigon
 player, 227 posts
 Cleric of Traladara
 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tue 18 Mar 2008
at 23:44
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
Well I'm not a thief so I can just skip the whole thing.

Anyone know how spells work?
Gwydion Redleaf
 player, 268 posts
 Rash and Aloof
Tue 18 Mar 2008
at 23:59
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
Wiggle your nose and picture exactly what you want to happen...

It worked on Bewitched!
Tanindara Briacat
 player, 172 posts
Wed 19 Mar 2008
at 00:12
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
I think if you're a 1st Level Cleric, the answer is still, "They don't."   But I'm just a thief, so I guess I can skip the whole thing. grin
Orken Badaxe
 player, 105 posts
 Dwarf
 What are you lookin' at?
Wed 19 Mar 2008
at 01:38
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
Quanfinigon:
Anyone know how spells work?


For minimum wage + tips...
DM
 GM, 784 posts
 Game Dungeon Mistress
Wed 19 Mar 2008
at 13:09
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
Meh, no one who makes tips also gets minimum wage, are you kidding?  I believe the standard is around $2.35-$2.65 an hour plus tips.


What do you want to know about spells, Quan?  The basics are in post #3 here: link to a message in "Karameikos Adventures (o_DnD)", and the full chapter of the book is here: http://arcadia.net/Cruinne/Basic/Rules/spells.shtml .

This message was last edited by the GM at 13:11, Wed 19 Mar 2008.

Orken Badaxe
 player, 106 posts
 Dwarf
 What are you lookin' at?
Thu 20 Mar 2008
at 18:13
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
Signs of the Conspiracy…

A) I detect one roll from the other group in the log but it looks faked…

B) Every roll by the orc cave group has been disastrous since then…

C) The mistress is teaching the other group to use spells…

D) The mistress insists on “game” dungeon mistress in her biography lines…

E) The mistress threw her dwarf pen pal in a hole and never wrote him back…

F) Drinking and DMing…

G) Briacat is being nice…

H) Quanfinigon is asking questions rather than pontificating on the answers…

I) Ildrulf is working with sarcophagi…
Infithe Versalain
 player, 486 posts
 ''Long fingers often lend
 others long faces...''
Thu 20 Mar 2008
at 18:30
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
J) Orken is reading thing between lines that does not exist.

K) He will read too much into these two lines too, and what is not there in-between them.
Orken Badaxe
 player, 107 posts
 Dwarf
 What are you lookin' at?
Thu 20 Mar 2008
at 20:12
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
M) Infithe suddenly returns from creative difficulty vacationing to needle the dwarf at the mention of conspiracy in order to discredit the notion…

N) Infithe is baking lots of fresh bread in her kitchen, perhaps for celebration…

O) Line L was hidden...

It’s nice to see the short, cute, and spiteful, one return. I’ve missed you. Hope you are back to play with us.

But I am on to your evil plans.  ;o)
Infithe Versalain
 player, 487 posts
 ''Long fingers often lend
 others long faces...''
Thu 20 Mar 2008
at 20:20
Re: { Out of Character Chat }
I would not call me baking bread evil...  Not that it is the best, but still.

P) There is no line L.

Q) Fictional character from the science fiction series Star Trek

R) Frequently used by pirates, except most of them could not spell it

I wish I was.  I have tired, and failed.  Yoda would be so disappointed.