Well, the question is whether you can get to them fast enough to take them both out before the shaman lets off a fireball or the decker decorates the walls with burst fire from his pistol.

I'm pretty confident you could take them down in a couple of rounds, but a couple of rounds where they have a target is unlikely to be quiet or avoid damage to the environment.  I might be able to patch up the gate, but getting a color match when patching bullet holes or trying to remove scorch marks is another matter entirely.  If you're going to hit them, you want to do so where you've got a high chance of surprise and where you can drop them (not just hit them) before they have a chance to do much more than turn their head.

Note that the constraints we're under here aren't typical.  Most of the time, making a mess is fine, or at least not the end of the world.

With a flash pack, you're putting them at +4, but you're putting yourself at +2, meaning you need 6s to hit.  That's not great odds.  And it won't stop them from running the other way or summoning a spirit or just tossing a grenade down the hallway where accuracy isn't so important.  If you were invisible and stealthy and could take out the one in back, then the one in front with surprise attacks, you might be able to make it work, but as soon as they see the flash pack and see you coming, they're going to have a chance to react and make a mess.

I'm not sure how you have so many actions. You get one complex action (or two simples) in the surprise round, then we return to normal initiative. The easiest way to do this is to do full auto, one round per target (this lets you aim as long as you want before the attack, then spend your surprise round hitting all three--BUT you only get the scope bonus to the first, and you get multiple-target penalties for the second and third.)

If we went how you have there, you'd aim and fire and take down the first. Then we roll initiative, and most likely they'd win (they being cybered goons). Surprise no longer counts. They'd have to roll to see you, but they can still act regardless. Then you'd get a chance for your second shot. You'd get the aim bonus, but you'd deal with better cover, counter-fire, and possibly losing LOS altogether.

There's no notion of a "surprise round" in SR3 that I can see.

I rolled an initiative of 26 - remember I'm jacked in so my initiative is 12 + 4d6.  They roll their initiative.  The book says .  It also says .

The first doesn't make much sense to me as there's no "current action" - just a current combat turn or a current combat phase.  Your "current action" could be a free, simple or complex action.  If it really meant next action, then I could just declare my next action was "speak a word" and then continue on to take my complex action - which would make surprise useless.  Plus the second quote says you can't take any actions (plural).

So my read is that the first sentence should say "character's current combat phase or to their next combat phase if the current combat phase is not the character's".  So that means that I get 3 combat phases as per my initiative.  My opponents lose their first combat phase unless they beat my roll of 6 successes (10 successes if you give me the -2 for ambush, but I figure I don't get that given that the elf made his perception roll) rolling reaction against target 4.  If none of them beat it, none of them can even take free actions like dropping prone.  If they're still standing on their second combat phase, they can take an action.

So the real questions are whether:
- anyone rolled a surprise roll of better than 6 (or 10) successes.
- the first goon rolled an initiative higher than 36 (don't think he's a cyber-zombie :>)
- the second goon rolled an initiative higher than 26
- the techie rolled an initiative higher than 16.

Right. So for the first combat phase, you act and they can't. This is an entire combat phase, which no one can do anything. For the sake of simplicity, I generally rule this as just a free set of actions, without rolling initiative for it (it saves me having to roll initiative for, well, nothing. It does technically help the slowest attacker and slowest defender--the result making surprise *slightly* less deadly for them). Because it's a set of actions that happens outside of the normal initiative order due to surprise, I've fallen back to D&D terms and called it a surprise round, but yes, technically, it's an initiative phase where only the attackers can move.

Regardless, Copperhead gets a free action, then we revert to initiative order.

If Copperhead thinks she's really fast, she can decide she'll take her free action to hit the first guy, then beat the remaining two in initiative, hit the second guy, then the third guy does something dumb, and Copperhead hits the third. That would be canon and perfectly fine. But it's not optimal, so I thought I was misunderstanding you.

Instead, the optimal is to take your time to aim on the first before combat begins. Then, as your first action fire full auto. First target is the first goon, and everything resolves normally (i.e., the aim + single shot you did initially). But then, for free, you get two additional shots, albeit at higher TNs.

With that done, you revert to the normal order. I roll initiative for Goon2 and Goon3, whoever has highest moves first. You aim and fire on Goon2, just like you would have initially. The only difference is, this is your second shot at him, not your first. (Technically, if we played it as part of the canon rules, the FA attack would confer recoil penalties as well, but you're doing single-shots, so I'm sure your RC is sufficient, plus the +2 for two extra shots, even under the worst conditions, is still better than not taking a shot at all.)

Well, by the book, there isn't an extra combat phase.  You roll initiative normally.  If someone would normally get one combat phase per turn, they get none - and the attacker gets their full set of phases before the target can do anything.  And then initiative gets rolled again normally.  As you've adjusted it, the surprised target is less vulnerable when the attacker has high initiative because they're guaranteed to be able to do a free action or dodge after the attacker has taken one combat phase.

As I understand things by the book, it would work like this:
We all roll initiative.  I get 26.  Goon 1 gets 19, Goon 2 gets 17, Techie gets 8 (for purposes of this example)

I go first.  No one can take any free actions until my second combat phase and no one can dodge or take any simple or complex actions until their second combat phase.

CT 1, CP1: I hit goon 1, goon 2 misses their first combat phase, techie misses their only combat phase
CT 1, CP2: I hit goon 2 (they can take a free action but can't dodge yet)
CT 1, CP2: Goon 1 and Goon 2 can take their second combat phase if they're not out cold, but they'll probably either be on their butt and be significantly hurting.
CT 1, CP3: I hit techie (they can take a free action but can't dodge yet)


With your adjusted rules

CP surprise: I get a free shot at goon 1 - he can't do anything
CT 1, CP1: I shoot at goon 2, but he can take free actions and dodge
CT 1, CP1: Techie gets full combat phase to do what they like.  Goon 1 and 2 can take actions (with penalties) if they're not out cold
I shoot techie and they can dodge

So by the book, I can shoot all 3 before they can take any action and none of them can dodge.  By your adjustment, I can only hit one before they start dodging and can only hit 2 before the third can take an action.

If we want to make that adjustment to make surprise less deadly, I can be ok with that, but it wasn't documented in the custom rules thread, so I was acting per the book.  I was avoiding full auto because that increased the likelihood of bullets hitting things other than the target and leaving evidence that something "not good" had happened.

In any case, we'll play it by your adjusted rules.  Can you update the rules thread?

I didn't think I could take aim before combat began because the elf noticed me which I thought kicked things off.  If I can take multiple aim actions, I'll certainly do that (let me know one way or the other)

Given Goon 1 and Goon 2's close proximity, I'd probably be better off using cover fire.  No penalties for range or recoil.  I fire 10 rounds into a 2-meter area and they have to resist 5 bullets apiece and, because they're surprised, they can't dodge.  Then on my first combat phase of the regular combat turn, I flatten the techie - he can take a free action to drop prone (which won't help) or say a word (which will be amusing) and can dodge, but an aimed 6 round burst with combat pool will likely get enough successes he won't be able to dodge it or soak it and, so long as I beat his initiative, he won't get any simple or complex actions before he drops.

I'll let you confirm this is viable before I update my post.

(P.S. Sorry to everyone else for all the rules mumbo jumbo.  In the future, I can take this sort of discussion offline into a PM, but I thought some might be interested in how it worked and resolved.)

That is correct. Usually that's a benefit to PCs, since NPCs are either trained thugs with initiative boosters, or worthless nobodies. Whereas PCs frequently have mages or techies (or riggers) with low initiative.



(Bear in mind, all three goons have Wired Reflexes 2 or 3, so most likely we're looking at 20-somethings across the board. In that case, you get off shot 1 against goon1, nailing him, then in the second round Goon2 and Goon3 both act with full pool and freedom and things continue normally. Otherwise, yes, in the situation you gave, the fast ambusher dominates everyone. I'll go ahead and update the rules thread.)



We were playing fast and loose with actions. But yes, while he's getting out of the car, you can aim.




That's also an option. I'd be curious how to see how that plays out, although normally cover fire isn't great.



Fortunately, your actions don't really impact anyone else's, so gameplay can continue as normal.

I was expecting 1 or 2.  4 goons with wireless 3 is a pretty nasty entry level mission.  However, we'll see how it plays out.  I didn't realize all three were wired.

I had forgotten that suppressive fire has a +2 modifier.  Because I've got a smart link, it turns out that my odds are slightly better with full auto - and more importantly, I have better control over who drops and who doesn't.

I've edited my post

Just letting you guys know that I am travelling from Aug 27 to Sept 7.  I probably won't get a whole lot of posting done in that time, if any.  Feel free to NPC St. V during that time if it will keep the story going.

I'll be on vacation from Sun-Wed, but I'll have my phone, so should be able to make at least brief (for me ;>) posts.

Safe travels St. V.

Thanks for the head's up guys.

I'm still "cyber-sprinting", so this is a rare but delightful breath of fresh air for me--when I can get it!

FYI, Shadowrun: Hong Kong dropped! I got to play a full five minutes of it :)

I think I fit in 10 before I decided that maybe finishing my work and prepping for our trip was a wiser use of time.  (Or maybe it was just that's when my wife returned home? ;>)  Definitely looking forward to loosing myself in it sometime or other this year.

Let me know when you've updated your response post to the results of my edited post and we'll go from there.

It isn't going to change what I had St. V do, but punching the decker with a shock glove isn't going to fry his equipment or anything, right?  Their equipment is probably sturdier than that?

As long as you're aiming for the face and he isn't currently wired in (he isn't) you should be fine.

Very nice profile Noruas :>

Thanks.  Ever seen a dwarf dance salsa?  No?  Neither have I.  I'm sure its possible though.  :D

BTW, in case you haven't noticed, the radio frequency we're on, only has us on it.  And who talks that fast anyways?
This message was last edited by the player at 14:14, Thu 27 Aug 2015.

Okay, thank you for the head's up. Weekends are still tough for me (getting tougher!) I can NPC you for the Thursday turn. Either tell me in advance what you plan to do, or you can choose a particular PC to take over. Otherwise, I'll just judge what seems to be the 'best' course of action and you can be a GMNPC. No impact to your karma or anything, but I can still kill you :P

You can kill me *anyway*.
Classes are starting up on the 14th. Unsure if I'll be better off just dropping off the face o the earth again.

Well keep me posted. If you do have to, we'll keep your seat warm.

Unrelated news, we have another player interested in jumping in. He is also experienced with SR. Since we're running with 4 a ideal group size is 5, I'm inclined to say yes. Most likely he'd be bringing a physad/face to the table.

If there are any issues or concerns, PM me. Or post it publicly. I'm not the boss of you.

Howdy folks. I'm the aforementioned potential face/adept. I'm hoping I get the chance to play with you guys. Thanks again for allowing me to lurk, Papa Bear!

Welcome Zomborobo.  Always good to have another target for Papa to shoot at - improves the rest of our odds ;>

(Also, please post. The only person who should be putting his feet up right now is Noruas, although he could probably figure out a way to be tricksy and handy right now too, given the level of access he's acquired.)

Well, I don't think I have a bead on the shooter yet.  And I'm reluctant to blow up his vehicle while it might damage the vehicle I'm hoping to steal.  So I'm continuing to fly at max speed to a position where I can take out the techie.  Presumably 2 more combat turns.

I expect the security folks are busy running downstairs from upstairs right now, so locking them in the stairwell could be useful.  As could preventing them from calling in Lonestar or their corporate security.

Instead of doing all that, I'm having a virtual soykafe and playing tetris against one of the black IC.  I wagered my Renraku Kraftwerk for control over everything in this domain....

What exactly do you think I'm trying to do?

BTW, welcome Zomborobo.  Hopefully, you will increase the odds of our future missions being more successful....that is if we actually survive this one.

Have no idea what you're up to.  Just throwing out ideas if you didn't have plans :>

Unfortunately, with Copperhead currently in the pilot's seat with her drone, that is a fact. No one is a witness to Noruas spitting up blood and his eyeballs rolling back in their sockets :(