zude111
 member, 13 posts
Sat 1 Feb 2020
at 19:45
Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
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Today: (Fudged 1 roll) DM rolled ...
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 197 posts
Sat 1 Feb 2020
at 19:53
Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
They can see the roll, assuming it isn't Secret, but they can't see the bit that states that you fudged it.
gmpax
 member, 1171 posts
 {insert witty quote here}
Sat 1 Feb 2020
at 20:44
Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
No, they don't see the purple text.  If they could, it would otherwise defeat the purpose of being ABLE to fudge the roll(s) in the first place, after all...!
zude111
 member, 14 posts
Sat 1 Feb 2020
at 21:22
Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
In reply to gmpax (msg # 3):

Thanks. That's what I hoped for.
Harley Quinn
 member, 7 posts
Tue 5 May 2020
at 15:36
Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
I don't use rolls in my game.

I am curious though, what does it mean to have a fudged roll?
donsr
 member, 1923 posts
Tue 5 May 2020
at 15:41
Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
fudged  rolls ...in my terms...are rolls the GM/DM   'tweaked' for better or worse outcome

I have  my own Dice roll standards with Mods  and such based on my own system... we don't  fudge the rolls, what ever happens, the gaming gods   decide!
Evil Empryss
 supporter, 1567 posts
 Insert witty and
 appropriate quote here
Tue 5 May 2020
at 15:41
Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
It's like the GM rolling dice behind a screen and quickly flipping the dice to the result they want to either help or hinder the party, then pulling up the screen and saying "See! That was the roll!"
Harley Quinn
 member, 8 posts
Tue 5 May 2020
at 15:46
Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
So it's kind of like cheating then.
Evil Empryss
 supporter, 1568 posts
 Insert witty and
 appropriate quote here
Tue 5 May 2020
at 15:52
Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
It is exactly like cheating.

But gms cheat for the sake of their players and their stories all the time.

I mean, think of it: what if in the canteena scene with Han and Greedo, Greedo's NPC dice roll to fire before Han had succeeded? The rest of the story would have been seriously derailed. So the GM cheats and Han shoots first.  ^_^
donsr
 member, 1924 posts
Tue 5 May 2020
at 15:55
Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
yes..its  exactly like cheating them.

 if they 'beat' your  set up for  what the roll was for..you should be happy as a GM, because they  have   put  alot into beating it, and the Die roll helped.. if they fail?  then that's good  as well, because it gives them something to RP  around.

 my players know, i'm not trying to kill thier PPCs off..but they also know they can die..why is this important?  because  if they know they are goign to get killed....no matter what"..they  will lose interest or start thinking about the next PC

 if they know they can't die... they will do stupid stuff and  ruin the flavor of the game...i have  cut a player or two in the past, for making the game  a  'joke' while others   seriously RPed   and grew their characters.

 Never Fudge...let the GAme  Gods  and the PCs  RP/Acyions tell the tale.
Yozi
 member, 610 posts
Tue 5 May 2020
at 15:55
Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
Fudging is a critical skill to curate the player's gaming experience.  Should players suffer because you over-estimated their hardiness against six goblins?  Of course not.  Fudging is a way of ensuring there is tension, but not a TPK. TPK should be the result of player fails, not DM ones.

My personal opinion, anyway.
Westwind
 member, 83 posts
 "[Sad] is happy for deep
 people" - Sally Sparrow
Tue 5 May 2020
at 17:40
Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
A little fudge is good. A lot of fudge leads to ... a lot of unhappy comparisons. ;)
donsr
 member, 1925 posts
Tue 5 May 2020
at 18:44
Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
the closest thing i have to 'fudge' ( i make 90% of the rolls off bard  for everything... 10% when i want  the players to  have a slight  bit of  control..otherswise..they are in 'real life' as far as out comes)

 anyway..if i have a very bad  roll, for a very bad  outcome..i will allow a player to make  a roll, with the understanding, that whatever happens , good or bad..stands..

Exmaple..one of my more active player, who had  earned  an extra PC, had his   2nd  PC come into  a combat area that was a bit more then dangerous..would have been great had he lived... BUT..he  got hit, my roll caused  the  PC to crash and burn, at best, he would have  been in Med tech for   a 'game time Month"..which equates  to about a goodyear RL!

anyway..he rolled..his  PC was Vaporized instead...but...that generated  alot of RP of the loss of the  characters, not to mention the finish of that operation...alot of  the game is based on the actions the PCs..so?  Any RP is good RP!
evileeyore
 member, 320 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
Tue 5 May 2020
at 20:43
Re: Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
Evil Empryss:
It is exactly like cheating.

Empryss gets i--

quote:
But gms cheat for the sake of their players and their stories all the time.

Nope, Empryss doesn't get it.

I never 'fudge' rolls.  If the outcome needs to be predetermined, then it will be, and I'll be above board with it.  Lying to my Players doesn't set right with me.

This message was last edited by the user at 21:03, Tue 05 May.

Zag24
 supporter, 626 posts
Tue 5 May 2020
at 21:09
Re: Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
Well, you're welcome to your opinion, eeyore, but I'm with Empryss, here.  The purpose of a GM is to make the game fun, not to maintain a slavish adherence to the dice roller.  If a stupidly bad run of luck -- or, worse yet, the GM has misjudged the scene's difficulty when designing it -- is going to make the game suck, then it is up to the GM to tweak things a bit to give the players a way out.  Causing a party wipe in spite of the players having done nothing particularly wrong does not make for a fun game.  ... In my opinion, of course.

I have, for instance, had a battle where the enemies were clever enough to have the three archers in the back know to target the party healer -- that was part of the setup of the scene.  I knew that they had only about a 25% chance to hit with any one shot, and the cleric could absorb four arrows, maybe five, before dying, and, of course, had the option to heal himself.  Then, by a miracle of the dice in the very first turn, all three make critical hits.  Well, I'm not going to kill off the cleric, which probably means a party wipe, just for one freak of luck.  That's not fun for the players, nor for me.

This message was last edited by the user at 21:24, Tue 05 May.

Evil Empryss
 supporter, 1569 posts
 Insert witty and
 appropriate quote here
Tue 5 May 2020
at 21:37
Re: Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
I've seen games end and groups break up because one stupid bad luck die roll killed off a character in the middle of their victory. I've seen dice rolls end a game on the first session, leaving the GM with nothing to run. Dice rolls be fruited, the point of the game is to have fun, and it's no more fun to have this happen in a game than if you read a book or watch a movie only to have everything fall apart because of dumb luck and then get no resolution.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't baby players, and I rarely fudge rolls for any reason. But there's a time to take the rolls as they fall, and there's a time to put 'em behind a screen and tell the players what they need to hear despite what the dice say.

I run my game, not the dice.
evileeyore
 member, 321 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
Wed 6 May 2020
at 02:28
Re: Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
Zag24:
The purpose of a GM is to make the game fun...

"Making fun" requires GMs and Players to be on the same side.  If I know a GM is willing to lie about dice rolls, I'm out.  I can't trust them not to lie about things anymore.  That's just my line in the stone.

Because that lack of trust ceases to be fun.  I'll forever question every roll from there out and stop being invested in the game.

quote:
If a stupidly bad run of luck -- or, worse yet, the GM has misjudged the scene's difficulty when designing it -- is going to make the game suck, then it is up to the GM to tweak things a bit to give the players a way out.

Sure, and step one is realistically saying "Hey guys, I don't think your characters will survive this if you keep pressing.  Now is the time to retreat."

Step two is to fudge the NPCs.  Not the rolls, all rolls are in the open, but tactics aren't, don't be slavishly wed to the NPCs tactics.  If they need to be suboptimal for a round or two to give the PCs breathing room to escape, perfect.

Step three is to pull punches.  If the Mindwarper needs to do 1d6+3 damage instead of 2d6+3, I can make that happen before the dice are rolled.  If the Mindwarper needs to start doing subdual so it takes prisoners instead of a TPK... again, I can make that happen.

But if the PCs persist in deciding to stick their hands into the murder hornet nest, I let the dice fall where they may.  PC death happens.  No risk, no reward, etc, etc.

quote:
Then, by a miracle of the dice in the very first turn, all three make critical hits.

There's your mistake.  You rolled all three at once.  Or worse, one at a time and persisted in the tactic despite seeing the road it was leading down.


As for fun?  I know groups that would consider that the height of good form.  If the group has been fighting bandits for awhile and the bandits know "Target the clothies first?"  Well the group needs to invest in some "protect the casters" magic, or subterfuge, or something.  Ain't no school like the Old School as they say.  (No, I don't play Old School either, I prefer I nice spot between the 'Old School' GM vs PCs and the 'New School' Coddlefest)

This message was last edited by the user at 02:32, Wed 06 May.

Zag24
 supporter, 627 posts
Wed 6 May 2020
at 02:55
Re: Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
evileeyore:
"Making fun" requires GMs and Players to be on the same side.

Well, yeah.  They are both on the side of telling a story.

All the rest of your remark is "Well, I consider the changes that YOU do to make things easier for the PCs to be cheating, so I'll do DIFFERENT changes that make things easier for the PCs.  Those aren't cheating because those are my choice.

I find it far more disingenuous to dumb down the opponents, to have a supposedly smart opponent do something stupid for a round or two, than it is to make the dice roller behave a little more fairly than it is inclined to do.  In fact, as a player, I find your kind of cheating to be far more objectionable.  That I would see and wonder at:  Why did the orcs suddenly stop using their tactic which was clearly working?  Oh, right, the GM is just playing dumb for us.  Ugh.

But I'm glad to acknowledge that this is just an opinion.  I respect your right to have your own, as much as I disagree with it.
evileeyore
 member, 322 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
Wed 6 May 2020
at 04:18
Re: Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
Zag24:
Well, yeah.  They are both on the side of telling a story.

Sometimes.  Sometimes Players and GMs want different things.  If I'm invested for a beer and pretzels, futzing around game and the GM keeps fudging things to make a grand story? We're not on the same page.  If I want risk of death and such, but the GM keeps padding the sharp corners, we're not on the same page.  If the BBEG keeps 'just slipping away by the skin of it's teeth' time and again for the good of the story... we're probably not on the same page.

quote:
I find it far more disingenuous to dumb down the opponents...

That's because you're skipping Step 1.  Step 2, or even 3, only happen if the Players decide it's time to retreat.

If they decide to fight, like I said, "hands in hornet nests", they're accepting character deaths and possible TPK, that's the choice they are making.  But they are making it, I'm not making it for them... you know, "for the good of my game".

If they chose to flee, they can try fleeing.  If I need to assist that flight, then I advance to Step 2.  And if even flight looks to be impossible (the dice are really against them, they're making boneheaded decisions, the NPCs are still way too buff, the trap was just laid too well), I'd advance to Step 3, capture over TPK and figure something out for the great escape next session.  If that's the route the Players want to go.

I'm just as happy driving the characters off the cliffs into the rocks below and letting the Players all make new ones if that's the route they prefer.

But I won't lie to them about how they got to whatever ending they got to, they'll have made those choices along the way.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15879 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Wed 6 May 2020
at 13:06
Re: Can players see my fudged DM/GM rolls ?
And just a reminder that whether or not you choose to use (or not use) a feature that this site provides (as requested by other users) does not make another person's choice to not use (or use) that feature wrong.

GMs are free to run their own games however they will, and telling another person that they are running their game "wrong" is just a little presumptious.

The "fudge" feature exists - use it or don't, it's up to you.  As long as the GM and players are enjoying the game, it's all good.

Now, since the original question has been answered, and just about everything else in the thread is just personal opinion, I think we can safely close this down.

Thank you all for your contribution.