bigbadron
 moderator, 15948 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Fri 16 Oct 2020
at 22:03
Re: Blacklist Function?
Everybody is entirely free to keep their own lists of other users, for whatever reason.  RPoL is not, however, obligated to provide a special function for just that purpose.

It's also worth noting that a list might not be a perfect solution, since people can request name changes (and RPoL's privacy policy means that we will not reveal those name changes).
evileeyore
 member, 397 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
Sat 17 Oct 2020
at 01:08
Re: Blacklist Function?
bigbadron:
It's also worth noting that a list might not be a perfect solution, since people can request name changes (and RPoL's privacy policy means that we will not reveal those name changes).

Which neatly gets them around the "reap what you sow" rule.


Of course, if a GM* changes names to avoid their reputation for starting and crashing games with days (or whatever other reason lands them on a list), it's not like they'll change.  It'll just be a new name on the list.


* There are no "player" names on my list because the only player I've ever had an issue with refused to respond to PMs, and when I asked the GM they didn't want to say out of respect for the wacky anonymity rules here.
Sir Swindle
 member, 260 posts
Sat 17 Oct 2020
at 01:27
Re: Blacklist Function?
Not obligated. True.

But a Friends/Enemies list is on pretty much every forum site. It shouldn't be an unexpected request.

Your user base asks for it about every 6 months. So we at least know that a new person thinks they would use the feature at least that often.

Many of us understand that a big feature like that is actually a big ask because the site is custom from the ground up.

You control your privacy policy. It's a fairly big deal to makes changes. But Friends lists lasting past a name change is a feature. People who want to change their names to get off of Enemies lists are people you shouldn't really care about the opinion of.
donsr
 member, 2078 posts
Sat 17 Oct 2020
at 01:43
Re: Blacklist Function?
i'm on one site, for only one game...some people think the site is great..but its a Mess..i have to keep a link in my Favs, just to get to my game....it doesn't have  any of the  stuff we have here, because thier's is  ..just weird..( No charcter sheet thing, unless you let everyone see..PMs  are  hard..dice roller is very very painful,

 anyway?  that site doesn't have a list like that either..just store the names you want in a PM to yourself..copy and past it to your other games in a PM..or print it out?...The Admins do alot of stuff here, this is really trivial .
facemaker329
 member, 7259 posts
 Gaming for over 30
 years, and counting!
Sat 17 Oct 2020
at 05:33
Re: Blacklist Function?
It really comes down to this:  black lists are something site management is unwilling to provide.  'Why' doesn't matter, it could be that they disagree with the notion, they're not comfortable with the potential abuses, whatever...but since it's THEIR site, which they're maintaining out of good will and without charge to anyone (some people are chipping in voluntarily, but that's different than being charged to use something), I approach the use of RPOL the same way I approach joining someone's game...it's theirs, and they're allowing me to participate.  I can make suggestions about things that I might feel would improve it...but if that suggestion has been made before and rejected, I should fully expect it to be rejected again if I bring it up.  They run things, and I can either go along with that and enjoy what they're doing, or I can decide that their methods don't sit well with me and it bugs me enough that I should leave.

But if I've decided to stay, it seems bad form to me to badger them to add a feature which they've repeatedly expressed a strong distaste for.  Agree or disagree as you will, but I feel like they've been exceptionally gracious hosts and I should try to be an equally gracious guest.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15949 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Sat 17 Oct 2020
at 06:05
Re: Blacklist Function?
evileeyore:
Which neatly gets them around the "reap what you sow" rule.

I just spent all night looking through the site's rules, and couldn't find that one.

quote:
Of course, if a GM* changes names to avoid their reputation for starting and crashing games with days (or whatever other reason lands them on a list), it's not like they'll change.

Not quite as prevalent as you might think.  This is what it says about renames in the FAQs: "While we will usually do one rename with few questions asked, we may refuse renames for any reason and will not entertain requests for a rename so that a user can escape their own reputation." /help/?t=faqs&page=multiple+accounts

Sir Swindle:
But a Friends/Enemies list is on pretty much every forum site. It shouldn't be an unexpected request.

And, as previously noted, you are free to keep your own list if you want to.  And no, it's not an "unexpected request".  It is, however, one that this site, and its Admin, do not choose to implement - like images in public forums, or user scores, or like/dislike buttons, or ads for dating sites, or any of a slew of annoying features which are considered "normal" on other forums.

I just checked my own lists.  After over 17 years on the site I have exactly five names on my list of people to avoid (and three of those I haven't seen about for a long time).  The friends list is... quite a bit longer, but I have no problem maintaining it myself.  I keep it in a scratchpad for one of my games that has been around since I joined the site.  Plus a backup copy in another game's scratchpad.

This message was last edited by the user at 06:07, Sat 17 Oct.

evileeyore
 member, 398 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
Sat 17 Oct 2020
at 12:34
Re: Blacklist Function?
bigbadron:
evileeyore:
Which neatly gets them around the "reap what you sow" rule.

I just spent all night looking through the site's rules, and couldn't find that one.

Under multiple accounts, reasons to not create another account:
"You have a bad reputation.
quote:
You reap the seeds you sow.
  Do not further soil your reputation by disregarding the site rules."

Don't get me wrong, all the reasons to not multi make perfect sense* to me.  I'm with you on not multi-ing, and I can see valid reasons to change a user ID... but they will always be shedding a reputation.  Good or bad.



* Unlike the "thou shalt not even mention the existence of games outside of four specific sub-fora", the "thou shalt not multi" makes perfect sense.
Skald
 moderator, 912 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sat 17 Oct 2020
at 12:50
Re: Blacklist Function?
For the record it's covered in the FAQs:

quote:
Will RPoL implement a public blacklist or kudos list, or some way to review games, players, and GMs on the site?

No.  There is no reasonable way to ensure that such a system is fair, or that every individual's unique situation is taken into account when others critique their performance.  While there is nothing to prevent individuals from keeping their own notes about which games and with whom they enjoy playing, RPoL will not implement any public system for doing so.

/help/?t=faqs&page=frf

evileeyore:
* Unlike the "thou shalt not even mention the existence of games outside of four specific sub-fora"

That one was to stop those who chose to spam forums with adverts for their own games under the guise of helping.

It gets a couple of mentions in the FAQs on The Background Behind All of Our Rules - https://rpol.net/help/content....e=Rules%20Background
bigbadron
 moderator, 15950 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Sat 17 Oct 2020
at 13:35
Re: Blacklist Function?
In reply to evileeyore (msg # 20):

That isn't a site rule, it's a comment regarding an actual specific rule.  The rule is that you can't make multiple accounts, and the FAQs mentions that, followed by a list of various excuses that people have given for why they did (and moderator commentary on those excuses).
donsr
 member, 2079 posts
Sat 17 Oct 2020
at 13:47
Re: Blacklist Function?
In the end....we are guests on this site....

NONE..of us are paid to be here, Nor  are the people  running  it, getting paid , by us.

The rules  are there. Ask  anything you want. That's  what the forums are for...BUT...except the answers you get from your host.

I have  PBP since  it  began its baby steps on AOL..I played  on many boards, One such board, as i have mentioned over the years here. Was great, but died by hacking.at least 5 boards i was in, and only the gods know how many others.

This site is  clean...all the tools   right on the screen..PMs that  you can  keep and adjust  to Multi PMs., You have threads  all in one place, the Dice roller is the best  i have used,and the Mods  keep people in line, so they don't ruin the   site for others.

doing the ''self PM' thing i mentioned, or simply writing  the   unwanted names on a sheet of scrap paper, is not a big thing.
evileeyore
 member, 399 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
Sat 17 Oct 2020
at 14:11
Re: Blacklist Function?
Skald:
That one was to stop those who chose to spam forums with adverts for their own games under the guise of helping.

I get that.  The problem is when there are a handful of "games" that aren't "games" that cannot be discussed anywhere (outside of the four advertising forums) even when it would be helpful to discuss them specifically.

This is side-digressing, I think I'll take my further comments/questions on it to General.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15951 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Sat 17 Oct 2020
at 14:18
Re: Blacklist Function?
In reply to evileeyore (msg # 24):

A "forum" is just a specific type of game.  Would it make more sense if we were to to say that any board (whether a game or a forum) can only be mentioned in specific public forums, and only then by the owner of that board*?

*Note that the ownership stipulation is clearly spelled out in three of the four advertising boards.
Redfoxmagi
 member, 167 posts
Sat 17 Oct 2020
at 23:21
Re: Blacklist Function?
Donsr, you don't have to drag out your entire PbP history.  I, too, was around when AOL started its first steps.  That's not really the point.  We're not really back in those times anymore--it's been thirty years since then.  Blacklists/Friends Lists are really a convention of modern game forums.  It's really not about people being able to live without it or not.  Certainly, I could function without electricity, for example.  But, it doesn't mean I'd want to.

Anyway, this wasn't meant to cause some sort of contentious conversation discussion.  I didn't know the topic was one that had been rehashed by people repeatedly as even though I've been on this site for many years now, I've not been one to peruse the non-game threads on an even rare basis.

If Staff would like, they are welcome to close the thread.  I'm sorry I asked.  I'll stick to the game threads from now on.
jase
 admin, 3781 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Sat 31 Oct 2020
at 09:17
Re: Blacklist Function?
Redfoxmagi:
If Staff would like, they are welcome to close the thread.  I'm sorry I asked.  I'll stick to the game threads from now on.

I may be am late responding to this thread, but that's not an outcome I want to see from (what should be) a civilised discussion.  We should be building a community here.

The simple reason a blacklist hasn't been implemented is I'd rather put my limited time toward RP-centric features and I didn't see a blacklist as something essential (or even remotely required) for RPoL to provide a robust feature set.  I fully expect everyone to require some form of record keeping and notes outside of RPoL and I thought this would be one thing that would be extremely simple to track externally.

From a mental barrier perspective a blacklist also seems like a negative feature which personally makes it undesirable to implement.  A friends list, on the other hand, is more desirable.. even if we did include a not-a-friend option for it.  The anonymous nature of RPoL does restrict the use of it somewhat but I think a friends list would be beneficial enough to get it onto the to-do list, even if it is a fair way down on the priority order.
donsr
 member, 2093 posts
Sat 31 Oct 2020
at 12:25
Re: Blacklist Function?
::chuckles:: Thanks Red? I think we see the reason why you need that list.
evileeyore
 member, 404 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
Sat 31 Oct 2020
at 17:10
Re: Blacklist Function?
jase:
I thought this would be one thing that would be extremely simple to track externally.

Unfortunately it's impossible to track externally.

Frex:  I've had several interactions with someone in a game as Players who was just... untenable to play with, the GM (who is a very long suffering patience of Job type) eventually booted them from the game for a second time.  I have no idea who they are outside of two Character names they've used.  I have no idea if they are running games, and would only recognize them in future games based on repeated instances of past behavior, but it could be an entirely different person with the same untenable nature and I would never know.

Simply put, I cannot chose to avoid interaction with this person in the future because I do not know who they are or who they will be.

While this is only a mild frustration, it is a frustration nonetheless.  One that I don't believe can be solved without a fundamental shift in the one (two?) of the rules of this society's basic assumptions of anonymity.  And I'm not sure it's worth it to the community as a whole to shift that one small thing.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 343 posts
Sat 31 Oct 2020
at 17:32
Re: Blacklist Function?
The thing that would concern me jase, be it a friends list or a not-friends list, is 'how do you maintain the anonymity factor?'

Even if it's as simple as putting an asterisk next to the player name on a cast list of someone that you have on your friends list, so that it tells you 'Hey, this character is played by someone you have friended!' without telling you exactly /which/ friend it is (which is the only way I can think of to do it that even pretends to maintain /some/ sense of anonymity), that's still potentially very harmful to certain games.

In games where players play multiple characters, or the GMs play incognito characters, having any kind of 'friends list asterisk' would immediately out those users. That's especially detrimental for GMs, because every player has access to their GMs username to add it to their 'friends list' to see if the GM is controlling any of the PCs. This is a really big deal, because you've already gone to lengths to code in things (like the shifting login times) precisely to help obscure GM-controlled PCs. Putting in something that undermines that seems...less than ideal.

While I understand that sometimes people go 'Man, I don't want to ever play with this person again', one of the most important lessons I've learned over the years on RPoL is that people change. Players that I abhorred playing with years ago have turned out to be some of the best players that I'm playing with now - and if I'd had a blacklist function years back, I wouldn't have wound up giving them a second chance.
Locke1221
 subscriber, 48 posts
Sat 31 Oct 2020
at 17:54
Re: Blacklist Function?
I think an acceptable compromise there would that a friends list should require the person being added to accept the request, and for them to be the one able to remove themselves from any friends list. This keeps it from being a method of involuntary outing of characters or being used as a blacklisting alternative.
Greymist
 member, 4 posts
Sat 31 Oct 2020
at 19:19
Re: Blacklist Function?
evileeyore:
I've had several interactions with someone in a game as Players who was just... untenable to play with...<snip>...I have no idea who they are outside of two Character names they've used.

I have no idea if they are running games...<snip>

I dealt with this exact situation in the last couple of months.

Player in a game seemed fine; in fact he decided to GM a game, and I joined. This his behaviour crossed a line for me. I left both games (elegantly, IMO. In both cases, I stuck around and actively posted until the party got to town, and them my character and I took our leave.)

Many weeks later, I applied for a game, GM looked great, group was active, all-in-all, it looked like it would be a great game. Once I was given access, I saw that old player there - and I only knew because he used the same character name. I apologised to the GM and left before I started.

Keeping a list of GMs is easy, and I suppose if you are the GM, a list of the players is also easy. But as a player, tracking other players is impossible. As EvilEyore says, it is a frustration and not overly important, but if we are voting, I would vote for this feature too.
evileeyore
 member, 405 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
Sat 31 Oct 2020
at 19:58
Re: Blacklist Function?
Greymist:
Keeping a list of GMs is easy, and I suppose if you are the GM, a list of the players is also easy. But as a player, tracking other players is impossible. As EvilEyore says, it is a frustration and not overly important, but if we are voting, I would vote for this feature too.

Exactly.  It hasn't happened yet, but I'd hate to have to leave a game I would have avoided joining if I know a specific individual was involved.
Locke1221
 subscriber, 49 posts
Sat 31 Oct 2020
at 20:28
Re: Blacklist Function?
I'll be honest, if such a feature where you could keep track of other players were implemented, and it not be an opt in feature, would cause me to close down my games and leave the site.

This message was last edited by the user at 20:33, Sat 31 Oct.

jase
 admin, 3782 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Sun 1 Nov 2020
at 00:15
Re: Blacklist Function?
This is why we can't have nice things civilised disucssions.

Nowhere have I said it'd bypass the anonyamimity aspect of RPoL, in fact I pointed out the opposite...

jase:
The anonymous nature of RPoL does restrict the use of it somewhat


The only way you would be able to track it (inside or outside RPoL) is if you knew the person's RPoL account name.  So (to spell it out) you'd either need to be a GM, they be a game owner, have a discussion with them via rMail, see them in a forum such as this or they (somewhere) willingly disclose their account name.

Anyone hoping for it to somehow break the anonymous aspect of RPoL would be disappointed.  You'd not magically know to join/avoid a game.

So yes it can currently be tracked externally and no there'd be no reason to take your bat and ball and go home if it was implemented.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 344 posts
Sun 1 Nov 2020
at 00:45
Re: Blacklist Function?
That's good to know jase, thank you for the reassurance.

I'd have no quibble with any kind of internal function, friends or blacklist, that only kept track of usernames and didn't somehow out players for being, or games for containing, someone on that list. Of course, we can already do that with pen & paper or a scratchpad. =)
bigbadron
 moderator, 15959 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Sun 1 Nov 2020
at 15:15
Re: Blacklist Function?
In reply to jase (msg # 27):

How about making the list a subscriber perk?
  • It's not essential
  • there are other ways to keep track of friends/enemies
  • it's just more convenient to have it on-site (especially if you log in from different locations)
Sounds like a perk to me...
Ski-Bird
 subscriber, 122 posts
Sun 1 Nov 2020
at 19:23
Re: Blacklist Function?
I really like the idea of having a scratchpad keyed to the main page (as opposed to being tied to a game).

I have some notes that I like to refer back to once in a while.  Free text would be fine, nothing fancy.  Since the scratchpad is a private sort of thing ... it sort of doesn't matter if someone wants to track role-playing buddies. favorite GMs, or flake/problem players.

Something like this would keep the 'anonymity is sacred' folks happy, and also avoid the inevitable butthurt of any publicly available list that is by its nature going to be completely arbitrary.