NowhereMan
 member, 430 posts
Sun 11 Apr 2021
at 18:23
Can players post new topics?
Like it says in the subject, is there a way to allow players to post new topics in a game, or is that the sole purview of the GM?
donsr
 member, 2232 posts
Sun 11 Apr 2021
at 18:28
Can players post new topics?
not that i am aware of..GM has complete control, as it is  thier game?

 the player could ask the  GM to start a thread, and allow the player to  use/run it
evileeyore
 member, 478 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
 Joined August 2015
Sun 11 Apr 2021
at 22:38
Can players post new topics?
The only way to give Players "Thread Creation" access is to give them GM access.

This might be one for the "Request a Feature" threads.
bigbadron
 moderator, 16011 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Tue 20 Apr 2021
at 15:52
Can players post new topics?
It's been requested before, and turned down due to overwhelming opposition.
evileeyore
 member, 483 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
 Joined August 2015
Tue 20 Apr 2021
at 18:25
Re: Can players post new topics?
bigbadron:
It's been requested before, and turned down due to overwhelming opposition.

Unless jase is opposed to it (he has to do the work after-all), I can't imagine how opposition should matter?  I mean, it would be a feature that individual GMs can simply not use.

Is there some argument* I'm not able to imagine here?


* If the argument is "only like two people wanted it, most people didn't" okay, sure, that opposition I can see swaying jase into the "it's just not worth the time".

But for my money such a feature roll out would also upgrade the granularity in "Co-GM/Co-Narrator" Powers, which I can only see as being a net benefit overall.
NowhereMan
 member, 433 posts
Tue 20 Apr 2021
at 18:31
Re: Can players post new topics?
Agreed. And there are certain types of games that simply don't work on RPoL if players can't make threads. Not a lot, mind, but some. For instance, I'd considered trying to emulate journal-style roleplaying here, but the way that such games are played requires players to be able to organize their own stuff. Granted, without folders such games would be messy as heck anyway, so there's more than one thing working against it, but I can't imagine it's the only type of game made more difficult by lack of such a feature.

Anyone in the overwhelming opposition care to weigh in? I'm interested in your thoughts.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 380 posts
Tue 20 Apr 2021
at 18:31
Can players post new topics?
I could only get behind this feature if it was:

1) An option that Game Owners (and only the Game Owner GM, not Co-GMs) could enable or disable on a per-game basis...
2) The option, once enabled, could then be applied to (or removed from) specific characters on a per-player basis (regardless of whether or not they were Co-GMs, Narrators, etc) instead of an all-or-nothing... (edit: And that there was nothing at all in the cast list to give away that a player HAD the ability to post new threads)...
3) The option to Post New Topics did NOT also include the ability to do anything else with threads (such as Lock, Archive, move Group, etc.)...

and 4) That the default setting for all of the above was 'OFF' unless the functionality was deliberately turned on by the Game Owner.




As an alternative suggestion that might be simpler, why not allow NPC characters to create new threads, regardless of who controls them? Then, a GM has the power to determine whether or not a player should have access to an NPC for the purposes of posting new threads without having to manage a lot of toggle box options for every character in a game. (I would still prevent them from being able to do anything WITH the threads, though, beyond posting a new topic.)

This message was last edited by the user at 18:38, Tue 20 Apr.

NowhereMan
 member, 434 posts
Tue 20 Apr 2021
at 18:39
Can players post new topics?
In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 7):

I assumed that pretty much all of that was a given. I was asking about/suggesting giving players the ability to start new threads, not necessarily giving them any other specific permissions. Those permissions elevate a participant past "player" to "game moderator" or "co-GM" at the very least, which wasn't the intention.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 381 posts
Tue 20 Apr 2021
at 18:45
Can players post new topics?
I understand that, NowhereMan, but I also have no idea how tied-together things are in the code, either.

If it wouldn't be possible to give Non-GMs the ability to post new topics without also giving them the ability to manipulate threads, that would be a deal-breaker for me.
NowhereMan
 member, 435 posts
Tue 20 Apr 2021
at 18:50
Can players post new topics?
It's purely conjecture, as I obviously haven't seen the code, but I don't think it'd be much different than how the public boards work. As "players" in the public boards, we can make threads, but we can't move, lock, or delete them without going through a moderator.
bigbadron
 moderator, 16012 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Tue 20 Apr 2021
at 20:38
Can players post new topics?
There was a poll, and only 26% of users (of those who actually voted) were in favour of the suggestion.  Given the lack of support for the idea, it was decided that there were more important things to be worked on.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 382 posts
Tue 20 Apr 2021
at 21:20
Can players post new topics?
Well, there you go!

Honestly, I can count the number of players that I have ever played with that I would trust to start threads on one hand and have several fingers left over, so I can't argue with that result one bit. =)
donsr
 member, 2243 posts
Tue 20 Apr 2021
at 22:56
Can players post new topics?
 as a GM, i don't need  players starting   new threads. I have  had  players , that RL  has  attacked, asked me for a  Thread they could RP in, and still stay in the game.

 If players  would be allowed to start threads? The GM  would have to be able to  delete them  as he/she feel the  need.
facemaker329
 member, 7339 posts
 Gaming for over 40
 years, and counting!
Wed 21 Apr 2021
at 03:30
Can players post new topics?
I can think of more than one player I've worked with who chronically just started new PM threads every time they had a question or a comment about something between us, rather than using the existing message thread(s).  I can only imagine the kind of chaos that would ensue if players like that started randomly popping up new topics every time they decided that they couldn't be bothered to go find an existing thread which already covered that subject/location-in-game/whatever...
Ski-Bird
 subscriber, 166 posts
Wed 21 Apr 2021
at 12:45
Can players post new topics?
facemaker329:
... one player I've worked with who chronically just started new PM threads every time they had a question or a comment ... I can only imagine the kind of chaos that would ensue if players like that started randomly popping up new topics every time they decided ...


^^ This is my sense as well.
Zag24
 supporter, 687 posts
Wed 21 Apr 2021
at 14:03
Can players post new topics?
As a GM, I've managed to prevent this by creating for each character a PM thread named "<Character name> - GM discussion."  I always tell the player that this is because I have a dozen threads titled "Access to ..." and finding the right one is a pain when I just want to drop a quick private note to them, and this is true.  However, there are really two additional reasons:  First, if the player disappears and I reassign the character, that new player will be able to see the discussion about why the character is the way that it is.  The second reason is the above one -- it discourages the player from making a new PM thread for every little question, by making it clear that this is where such questions should go.

Anyway, this has worked for me so far.  YMMV.

Returning to the subject at hand, I also would not want players to make new threads, unless I were running a 'game' that is really a discussion board, like the ones for specific game systems.  Therefore, the ideal, IMO, would be to have such a feature where the GM can turn it on or off, with the default being off.  Perhaps an even better approach would be to have a new role added to the list of Player / Moderator / Owner.  The new role would just be a Player who can start new threads, but without the other aspects of Moderator.  But I'd never use this feature, so for my purposes, it isn't worth any development time.

This message was last edited by the user at 14:08, Wed 21 Apr.

evileeyore
 member, 484 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
 Joined August 2015
Wed 21 Apr 2021
at 16:52
Can players post new topics?
It occurs to me that some people don't seem to understand what was being asked for, I wonder if that weighted the original poll?
facemaker329
 member, 7340 posts
 Gaming for over 40
 years, and counting!
Wed 21 Apr 2021
at 17:05
Can players post new topics?
Zag24--I wasn't even the GM.  He just had an issue with some of the interactions between our characters (he apparently had issues with everyone, according to our GM.)  One particular issue resulted in him creating three different PM threads with me.

evileeyore, not sure how many ways "can players create new topics?" can be reinterpreted...it seems pretty straightforward to me.
evileeyore
 member, 485 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
 Joined August 2015
Wed 21 Apr 2021
at 20:23
Re: Can players post new topics?
facemaker329:
evileeyore, not sure how many ways "can players create new topics?" can be reinterpreted...it seems pretty straightforward to me.

"Like it says in the subject, is there a way to allow players..."

It looks to me like you and others are blithely ignoring that the request would be to put tools in the GM's toolbelt, ie:  The GM would be able to set Players to being able to create threads, not just "Hey can we get it set for all Players to be able to willy-nilly make new threads, LOL, k-thanx..."



For example my ideal set up would have all the GM Abilities be able to be given to Players discretely, something like so:

 NARRATOR ABILITIESGM ABILITIES
PlayerCreate Threads*Delete Own ThreadsDelete Any Player ThreadsEdit Posts*View Private Lines*View Secret RollsEdit Game MapDelete/Create Threads as GMView Private MessagesConfigure Dice rollerEdit Character DetailsPlayer and Character Maintenance ControlGame Information ControlGame Settings ControlGame Maintenance Control
Player 1XX             
Player 2   XXXX        
Player 3XXXXXXXXXXX    

In this example, Player 1 is someone the GM has given license to create and delete their own threads, maybe they're writing background lore for the game (newspaper clippings, stories, songs, posting artwork, etc) or maybe they have the ability to create "private areas" that they and a few in the same Group can then access, but aren't Private Messages (for archival reading by everyone later).

Player 2 is basically a moderator with map editing abilities.  Maybe they're a Narrator who can spin off storylines and threads as needed, or is in charge of running combats or specific scenarios.

Player 3 is a Co-GM in all ways that pertain to running the story, but not someone with full access to game maintenance.


Frex, I Co-GM in a game that might likely have been setup as the example of Player 3 had the tools existed when the game's GM set me as "Co-GM".
donsr
 member, 2249 posts
Wed 21 Apr 2021
at 20:33
Re: Can players post new topics?
::chuckles::  'NO' is  a more simple, easier answer.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 383 posts
Wed 21 Apr 2021
at 21:25
Can players post new topics?
I'm still on the side of thinking that it would be beneficial to perhaps give the ability to create new threads (ie, specifically the Post a New Topic sidebar option, nothing else - assuming that in and of itself is possible) to NPCs.

Currently, there's zero functionality difference (that I can see, at least) between characters tagged as 'PC' and characters tagged as 'NPC'. GMs have the option of creating and assigning NPCs to players to control. Ergo, *IF* NPCs had the ability to create threads via the Post a New Topic option, that seems to me that it would alleviate several of the concerns that have been raised regarding just allowing players to post new threads:

1) The GM would have total control over which player(s) had access to an NPC for the purposes of posting.

2) It would obfuscate which player has the rights to make new threads, via those threads coming from an NPC. (Some of you might not think that's an issue, but I can attest for a fact that some players will get MASSIVELY bent out of shape if they realize that other players in their games have any rights they don't, and PCs starting threads directly will make that painfully obvious to those that can't...)

3) It's simpler than managing a whole slew of permission checkboxes on a per-character/per-player basis. Either a player has an NPC under their control, or they don't.

4) It allows the GM to follow a more logical naming convention - Say for instance that character Bill owns a tavern, and the GM has decided to let Bill's player run scenes set in Bill's tavern. The GM can create an NPC named '<Name of Bill's Tavern>' that can then be used to set scenes in Bill's tavern. Alternatively, GMs can create NPCs like 'Scene Narrator' or 'Set Dresser' or even 'Secondary GM' or whatever for the purposes of setting scenes, without giving those players full and unfettered Editor/Co-GM access. (There are a great deal of reasons why someone might not want GM access, even if they're trusted to have it, before anyone says 'well, if you don't trust them with GM access, you probably wouldn't trust them to run scenes'.)

Just some thoughts, really. None of this is anything that I think we NEED, and I certainly don't think regular players should have access to ANY of the other GM abilities (even when selected manually as eeyore's table suggests), because players deserve to have at least some idea of who else has the ability to be doing things like viewing private lines or private messages - but if there was a quick and simple way to allow NPCs to JUST post new topics, it could be useful to me.
NowhereMan
 member, 436 posts
Thu 22 Apr 2021
at 01:19
Can players post new topics?
evileeyore pretty much nailed a more detailed account of my thoughts. There could be a lot of uses for such capabilities, since it's essentially an "all or nothing" approach between being a player or being a co-GM.

donsr:
::chuckles::  'NO' is  a more simple, easier answer.


You are technically correct.
Skald
 moderator, 930 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Wed 28 Apr 2021
at 04:41
Can players post new topics?
I'm closing this thread as the question asked has been answered - players can't create new threads in games.

Any requests for changes to existing functionality should be made in the RPoL Development forum if you want jase to look at them - the Technical Discussion forum is the wrong place for an in-depth debate of the pros and cons.

With the caveat as bigbadron pointed out that it wasn't at all popular last time someone asked, you're certainly free to try again to convince the user base/jase.   :>