For discussion concerning the game in general.

I think it could be a cool idea to do something similar to what the lads at the Star Wars groups did and group GM's by time frames, but only with WFRP give each GM a territory in the Old World and let the characters move freely about.  It would take a lot of work, but if we had a 2:1 or 3:1 or at least a 1:1 GM to player ratio it wouldn't be that difficult at all. Well maybe not, it would be a pain in the ass, but if it worked it would be EPIC.

That would definately take a ton of work, but I agree that it should be something we think about. Were you proposing that it be something started within the RPOL boards? And what would the basic rulebooks a GM would need to be included, a standardized canon if you will?

It would take a lot of work, probably more problems than answers, but it is something to shoot for, an ongoing campaign with the GM ratio absurdly higher than the players, so the game will refuse to die off, and if one of the GM's happens to get board let him take over a PC in another group I mean, if you had 1-9 groups and A-E each with three GM's that would be 42 GM's it sounds impossible but even half of that and we could start a community that works together maybe not topographically, but in some sense that isn't a hierarchy.

The problem I have found with multiple GMs in a game is who deciding who is responsible for what. You have to have this clearly defined in everyone's mind otherwise if it is left to one person to do the workload of two then a game can quickly become stale. You would also have to ensure that everyone's ideas about the Warhammer world don't conflict. Does sound like an interesting concept though.

Furry Teddy is right, like any group project done at any level of school, someone always gets the short end of the stick.  I suppose  you would have to come up with some sort of democratic system in place just to put a system in place.  IE just to create canon you would have to define canon.  These kinds of semantics could go on forever, but if the game was run more geographically as an option, a player could find a GM he likes and a GM could possibly steer a player toward a GM that would better suit the player.

It would be like nation states, some games are slower paced, others faster, some with more combat others with more intrigue and the GM's could give mission statements on what kind of game they were going to run, and each GM would be able to guide the players on truly personal quests to find the GM they were really looking for when they RTJ instead of just dropping out, and the exploration of WFRP in my opinion is the best part of the Old World because it is so much like our 1500 a.d. Europe and yet complete in it's fantasy pathos.  And believe me there is enough room just in the Empire alone to cut up let alone the entire Old World.

Is it just me, but in most campaigns do the PC's get far more money than they ever should? Seriously, I did a comparison with the income chart in the rulebook and the regular sort of campaign funding the PC's get breaks even at around Wizard lord (300-800 GC).

Thoughts?
This message was last edited by the player at 23:19, Fri 23 Jan 2009.

Whoops.

I think its a good scale. I mean, the PCs are the ones who have to chase down all of the gear anytime they want to advance a level. And it gives them more oppurtunites to break into the other sections of the book, beyond casting spells and swinging swords.

How many people have had their PCs invest in an Inn or a Gambler's den?

It adds another level to the game, but it is definately something that should be monitored, or else you just get a bunch of gold nymphs breaking the economy of every town they go across.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:25, Fri 23 Jan 2009.

Just seems really, if you'll pardon the irony here, unrealistic. The way I Gm is that the motive of money really tests their characters morals.

I mean, just recently I had this loud mouthed, racist halfing hurling abuse at the PC's, but when he offered two of them money for a "dubious" task, they returned to work for him later when promised 30 gold coins. If I had allowed the PC's to gather millions of cold coins it would be reckless beyond belief, knowing they could bribe the emperor himself.

I suppose it depends on your GMing style, for example in nareik123's game, the PC's were offered a 100 gold coins to slay two mutants, something I would personally never do.

I think you are right, in that different players call for different games. The last time I was on a tabletop, the PCs all got together and bought some real estate and we did a whole session on them procuring land rights, paying off bribes, extorting officials and knuckling out the competition.

It was really quite fun.

But, these were characters well on their way to peaking out their classes. I can understand where not having a lot of coin could lend much more to the gritty aspect of the Old World.

I generally see coinage as another resource GMs can manipulate to find out what makes their players come back to the table. I'm not saying I'm a pushover, but, as long as the players don't try to buy the biggest sword because it does SB +5 instead of using the spear at SB+3 that he had clung to for so long, then I am not adverse to giving them the chance to add more numbers next to their GC values.

I think it all depends upon the players and also the characters. Personally I like my characters to have to scrape by. If I'm GMing I prefer to give rewards in something other than money so that players have to barter and I find this to be more realistic. However I do have WFRP characters that were converted from WQ battle level 10 characters and they have swords that are worth more money than a small palace but these really are characters who have made it in the world.

Magic items and loads of gold should be something left to D and D games IMHO.  Dirty, starving PC's are my favourite.  Most times my PC's get $$ it goes to buying new clothing to replace their blood soaked rages, rations, ammunition and occasionally a piece of new gear.  I tell my PC's as long as they stay within reason I will not add up encumbrance, and in nearly every game I end up adding it up because of one or two greedy players.  If PC's slay something/one the armour is often destroyed, or at least parts of it ruined, and weapons recovered are usually ingraved with with foul runes making selling them tough.  I love it=:)

Normally I end up offering the players fairly megre rewards, a good adventure nets them a few gold, and often this will be replaced with items, services or information. (My favourite game money wise was when the players tendancy to buy beer, ladies of negotiable affection or a stream of bribes and fines to conceal there actions, tended to leave them starting every adventure broke.)

Strangely enough I have never had players actually try to sell every piece of equipment they came across. The main annoyance though was arrow/bolt recovery, I ran a game were the entire party used bows and for a while half the combat's seemed to be obsessed with the state of the fired projectiles.

The one exception to that was when I was running an Elven game, where the player gained substancially more expensive items than they would normally get. Partially since I always fell that elves, still living in elevn territory should find elven items easier to get. (But still didn't want to give them the levels of money to buy such), partially since they were arrogant enough to never try looting items off humans and partially since they were ludacrously over competent.

New thought: Would the Empire folk view homosexuality as a chaos mutation of the mind or generally not care? Thoughts?

There is a longish thread on the fantasyflightgames site dedicated to this.

I think it would depend on the area.  Historically there have been ancient civilizations that have not had problems with it at all and others were it would be a death penalty offense.

As I recall one of the old campaigns written by GW had an NPC who was implied to be a bisexual.

I believe he was described to be flirtatious with human women, and elves. So I don't know if that helps you at all.

That's quite helpful actually, I didn't consider it changing from region to region.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:01, Mon 26 Jan 2009.

I have to say considering the Bretonnian obilivous view on Women, I just have the image that 'of course it's a complete abomination, and only the most heinous chaos worshipping scum would do such a thing.'
While in practice no one really likes it, but as long as those nobles involved are slightly discreete, aren't caught worshipping chaos dieties and eventually give an odd heir every one pretends not to notice.
Of course any peasent's caught sodomising would be hung if brought to a lord.

The other point is it could be a point of conflict between the 'good' dieties e.g. in Sigmarite doctrine it's evidence of corruption and the influence of chaos. Shallya doesn't like it, but tends to hide it due to not turning down those in need thing. Possibly even going to being a religous element of some cults of Taal.

Just some quick thoughts, I have to say this topic really got me thinking.

I would hazard a guess that it could be something dealt with, as mentioned before, on a region-by-region basis. Even within the Empire, certain lands might be more inclined to view homosexuality in a liberal light. For example, in Ostland, people might be too busy trying too survive to worry about their neightbors prediclections.

Interesting fodder for any GM, as a way to give a game a deeper breath of life.

Hey, just wanted to take everyone's temperature on this: What are your thoughts on pre-generated starting characters?

I'm working on a game where I have in mind a certain type of PC. I think it would be more fun letting the players work to strict guidelines to get to something that I want rather than just generating all the PCs myself. But that process might be a bit wearing on the players so it could save time if I did them myself. Anyone got an opinion?

I think some aspects of you creating them would be alright, but things revolving around personality and other aspects that make the character more linked with the player shouldn't be made by you. Of course you can always work with each player to guide them alittle towards what you want.

I agree with the last thing ArenTel typed. It might require a little more correspondence between you and the player, but they also might pleasantly surprise you with what the come up with.

For example, you could go with having one character fill a general idea of a career.

Like, "I need someone to play a shady career."

Between you and the player, you could come up with a graverobber-type with a conscience, or a rat catcher who takes care of the street urchins. Eventually, the rat catcher could develop into a crime lord, the Orphan King, and take a really interesting swing to the game.

You could even limit it more, like "I need a X career with the following skills" and then let the player go to town within that framework.

Seems to me any guidelines are fine aslong as you allow the PC's to create their own history. That way everyone wins.

Don't know if anyone has ever played Harnmaster, but part of the character creation system that they encourage people to use is for the player and GM to essential play out a 'mini-game' where you finish out the character's background.  You roll your starting stats, which is essentially your character at the age of 15-16, and then rough out additional background.

For instance:
GM: There's a famine at your village.  A group of men and women from the village are going to travel to the nearest city to look for work.  Or you can try to petition your local lord for relief, or do something else.
Player: I'll go talk to the baron.
GM: (rolls some 50/50 dice, or does a simple characteristic test)  The baron is swayed by your argument and lends you money to visit a market town and buy grain.  (Rolls again)  Unfortunately, you're attacked by bandits and robbed on the way to town.  You can go back home empty-handed, or try some other way to get food.
Player:  I'll go on to the town anyway and try to make money.
GM: There aren't many jobs available in town, but there is a mercenary company shipping out soon.  They'll hire you to work with the baggage train, tending the horses and mules and helping manage supplies.  You could also wait around town for other work, or go somewhere else.
Player: I'll take the job.
GM:  You spend a few days in town, and then move out heading for another province.  You spend three months with the mercenaries camped outside a castle while the mercenaries put down a peasant revolt.  One night, you spot another person from your own village.  He's pretty angry.  He says everyone assumes that you disappeared with the baron's money, and you've been declared an outlaw at home.
Player: Crap.

So in this exchange, you've given a player whose background is as a rural peasant or something a chance to enter into several possible careers (peasant, camp follower, mercenary, outlaw), you might give them some extra experience for the various things they've done, give them a chance to learn some different skills, etc.  Haven't tried it in a PbP game; might work better using an instant messaging client or something.

That's not a bad system at all, I'll have to when I Gm a new game.

Thanks for the advice guys, I particularly like spasemunki's idea, I'd have never thought of that.

I am considering GMing a game loosely following the Paths of the Damned plot. I want my PCs to be a group of Empire soldiers, veterans of the Storm of Chaos. The PCs will be from an Ostland unit so I wanted to reflect the flavour of the unit in the career choices.

My next question: I want to put in a bit of work to flesh out the background of the unit, particularly their actions in the Storm of Chaos. I have a copy of the campaign booklet. I was just wondering if anyone knows of any resources detailing the actions of the war. Something like a timeline or gazette of the Storm of Chaos. I already have a nice set of maps of Ostland which I am currently annotating with the events of the War.

Sent you an rMail, let me know if that is what you were looking for.

Career Compendium Available Now
The latest source book for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is In Stores
http://new.fantasyflightgames....ge_news.asp?eidn=394

Looks interesting but only 8 new careers?

They might be 8 new really COOL careers!
Nah, probably not, hope at least there's some new plots about. They are definetly due, been ages since plundered vaults was published.

Question: In your game, whether you are GM or player, do you think your PC's are interacting enough?
This message was last edited by the player at 12:58, Thu 19 Feb 2009.

Depends on the game.  It is really up to the players to interact.  If the GM has put them together and given them some reason to be together then it's in their hands after that. I run two games with various results.  Some of the groups do a great job, others I have to keep poking them with a stick even though I shouldn't.

It just seems to me that character interaction is one of the few responsibilities for the players themselves. I bring it up, as on the 21 questions Flakk made, I had one character complain about the lack of interaction between PC's as though it was something I could change.

Regardless, aslong as the zombies get slain all is well.

Does anybody know of rules for realms beyond the World's Edge Mountains?

none that I've seen. Though lore-wise I believe that's the way to Ind and Cathay, which is the WFRP version of India and China

Try the old WFB Chaos Dwarf book for the Dark Lands.  Above and to the east of the Dark Lands there's the Eatern Steppes, home of the Kurgan, and that's seperated from Cathay by the Hobgoblin Hegemony and the Kamalayan Mountains.  There's a map of the Cathayan Empire somewhere on the net.  Ind's to the southwest of Cathay and is completely isolated from the rest of the world, and somewhere between the Eastern Steppes and Cathay is the Ogre Kingdoms (no idea where though :P  GW decided to just drop another country on the map randomly so they could sell a new army).  Directly south of Cathay is Kitsevara, northeast is Han Kuo, and east across the Sea of Cathay is good ol' Nippon.

I'll see if I can dig up the rest of the stuff I've got on that neck of the woods tonight :)

Hinterlands of Kuresh ring any bells? I think it's similar to Thailand etc.

Hmm... I know that Tailan is a part of the Cathayan Empire, famous for its jungle geurillas.  I don't know if anyone's ever done anything with it setting wise though.  Hinterlands of Kuresh does sound familiarish though...

If anyone's interested, I've just uploaded an update of Scott Hoover's Cathay Sourcebook to sendspace:  http://www.sendspace.com/file/ur97ur

Bear in mind that it's a real rush job I slapped together ages ago when I was thinking about running a game in Cathay, but it has a lot of information that might be useful to anyone interested in the Dragon Empire and the Far East.
This message was last edited by the player at 08:01, Mon 23 Mar 2009.

I've always wanted to see a campaign/game focused around the Elector Counts. There is so much basis to model the espionage and diplomacy that would happen between electors. Imagine setting the game upon Karl Franz's death and letting the possibility of all out war in the empire occur.

Having played Europa Universalis and just getting a taste of the Holy Roman Empire's progressions and how it worked as a loose alliance, it would be fascinating to play in a fantasy version of that grand age.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:09, Mon 23 Mar 2009.

My Warhammer game has just hit 6000 posts!  Not bad for only having 2-3 players at any time.  I use it for "real" face to face sessions with my buddies that I only get to see every month/month and a half or so and have to drive almost four hours to see.  Great fun and well worth the trip!

Here's to myself, my players (in all games) and to another 6000!

Career Compendium is nice, I have it sitting here with me right now, Just purchased it from our LGS here in Austin, TX. Worth the price, even if its just compiling a bunch of the already seen careers, because it adds all the creation stuff in the rear of the book, and has the tables for random Class creation five different variants. Great book, worth the buy.

I just joined the group here, because I am running a Warhammer Fantasy Game offline with my group and I might need to talk to some other GMs from time to time about questions, ideas, etc.

I might move a game to RPOL. Right now we are doing the Paths of the Damned Epic Campaign, which I am in love with, The writing is great and the story melds so well.

I added a nice little random feature to our offline game though, 1d4 for Race too, just to make everything Random. The players actually enjoyed it. Shame though, the fall of the dice have not given me any Dwarves or Halflings yet. And my offline group is six strong. We have a bunch of Elves and Humans.

Offline Group Website for Poops and Giggles: http://thruxus.shadows-angels....mer/phpBB3/index.php
This message was last edited by the player at 02:44, Fri 17 Apr 2009.

Cool stuff and welcome aboard!

I've been thinking of getting the "Career Compendium" so good to hear a review.

Oh ok, who did it? Who registered on my Offline groups website? lol

Oh, Question,

Having more than one Lore for Wizards, is it possible somehow? I have a player offline that wants to take two lores. I looked in the corebook, and could not see anything to prevent or accept this way of thinking. I do not have access to the Realms of Sorcery or I would look there. Anyways, if someone could let me know that would be great.

It is not possible.
The only time you get acess to the Lore talent is as Journeyman wizard, as far as i remember the later careers dont have it.
This all in acordance to the fact that Human minds can only handle one of the colors of magic.
And then we come to the question of Elf spelcasters ;)

Yeah your telling me. I am having some issues with his Elf Apprentice Wizard character, since the fluff says that they do not have to play for the College services, But I hear there are rules in the Realms of Sorcery book that detail the colleges, etc. But nothing on the Elven Apprenticeship. Which would be nice to have some info on it.

A thought; What would the Imperial stance on Slavery be (of non empire citizens of course)?

Hmmmmm.....very good question.  I could very well see slavery in the form of indentured servants, vassals, and those owing (or whose family members owed) debts.  Pure slavery....I'm not so sure of.

Excellent topic!

There was an excellent article on slavery in the Old World in Warpstone a few years back. I've probably got it buried somewhere in the loft. From what I recall, the writer's argument was that slavery per se was not legal in the Empire, but various forms of indentured servitude were, and of course outside of the legal bounds of the Empire were places where slavery was legal (and sometimes commonplace eg Norsca and Araby). Slaves enslaved and purchased outside the Empire (perhaps in Marienburg, where buying and selling of slaves might be legal even if enslavement isn't) would remain the legal property of their owners even within the bounds of the Empire. So you can own slaves in the Empire, you just can't buy or sell them or enslave anyone. This means that your average citizen would abhor the idea of slavery, but might well be in an indentured servitude that is in many ways similar to it, and a merchant might have a house full of norse or arabyan or southlander slaves perfectly legally. In the case of such savages most Imperial citizens may even feel they are less than human, and do not deserve the freedoms and legal protections they enjoy.

I really like how they did the slave "career" in The Skaven book.  I kind of entertained the idea of running PC's that were captured, but then tried a Skaven PC game instead.  Running evil campaigns is hard=:(

Question..

Elves and Magical Colleges, The Career Compendium and the Corebook state that Elves are exempt from the prices of the Colleges. Does this mean that they still attend the Colleges, or do elves do a one on one mentorship with another elven Wizard, I have looked in the realms of Sorcery book for something about Elven Apprentice Wizards, but nothing, the book assumes that all are human.

Anyone have any info on them?

Elves in the old world is a slightly confusing topic. My understanding of the current background is that there are three types of elves, high elves, wood elves and dark elves. There also used to be sea elves (WFRP v1 now simply known as elves from the eastern outer kingdoms e.g Cothique) and elven rangers (WHQ unofficially referred to as grey elves) but they seem to have been erased from the current background.

Elves do not attend the human colleges and so have no need to pay fees. for the most part they are left to their own deices and it really depends on what type of elf they are.

High elves learn from their lore masters in Hoeth. I don't have my books to hand right now but I am pretty sure that its is stated somewhere that all high elf mages are trained in Hoeth. It also says that the career progress in the WFRP book is an apprenticeship where they have been sent out in to the world to master a lore of magic before returning to Ulthuan to finish their training. I would assume from this that they are without a mentor during their travels in the Old World.

I'm not sure about wood elves but in my opinion those found wandering the world are exiles or on a special mission. Exiles would be left on their own and would possibly be better suited to the hedge magic career progression where as the others would return to their woodland kingdoms for training although how this is done is beyond me.

Dark elves roaming the old world would probably be male exiles who have fled persecution and so again would be without the support of a mentor. I imagine that there would be to few of these individuals to form a cabal of any sort.

My favourite type of elf is the elven ranger. These are the elves who refused to leave when the elves fled the old world or retreated to the forests. they usually form the hub of an elven quarter alongside the merchant houses. These elves train with their peers passing along skills that they have learnt on their travels but they cab also seek advice from the noble lord of the elven quarter.

I hope that gives you a few ideas. How your elves can be trained really depends on your view of elves in the old world.

Yea, the elven wizards learn the basics from their own lore masters. Chances are they're about the in old world for similar reasons as apprentice wizards, likely a "Learn how to control your powers in the wild" vibe.

Elves and Grimores?

Hows that work, if a Elf Journeyman needs a Grimore to enter Journeyman. And the elves do not go to the collages ?

Well the colleges aint the only place witha cess to grimoires now are they
Friendly old necromancers, kind cultists, raving yet misudnerstood lunatics......;)

  To be honest it seems kind of odd to expect Elven wizards to study human grimoires at all. I mean, as far as they're concerned all human understanding of magic is limited isn't it? I'd be inclined to lift the requirement for an Elven character to find a grimoire or study at a College, and instead work with the player to figure out some sort of quest that would allow them to demonstrate the character's commitment to enhancing their magical knowledge, whether that be locating some site rich in magical energies that they can study, or locating some long-lost elven artifact.

It does make a little sense with Elves studying human books if they can't get hold of any elven ones. All the imperial knowledge of spells stems from the lore the elves taught them, so essentially it's the same stuff. Just less specific and in a cruder tounge.

Still, the elves see mastering a single lore as "adequate" rather than "bloody epic" as Imperial wizards do.

Personally, I'd say take the advancements with a pinch of salt, such as needing to speak Tilean to become a sergeant.

There are lots of ancient elven ruins throughout the old world hidden away by there powerful spells that are now only beginning to be revealed as the magic fades almost a thousand years since the spells were first cast. These ruins would be perfect for finding elven grimoires.

A grimoire is a magic item and this is not D&D. In WFRP magic items are rare and so the quest to find one could form the basis of a side adventure for the elf in question.

Also the career path is only a guideline. it may be more characterful for a wood elf character to have some sort of spirit guide (not a familiar) to aid in his training etc.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:45, Mon 27 Apr 2009.

Having a Elven Apprentice Wizard, Journeyman Wizard, and Wizard Lore, that differs from the ones in the Corebook/Career Compendium would be interesting. Ones that were Elven specific.

"One hundred and one reasons why not to trust a dwarf" perhaps?

In reply to Thruxus (msg #60):

I actually have a home made eleven career that is based upon the Elf Ranger from WQ if you are interested. I'm always looking for feed back about it.

 I would just like to add this, because its true.

If you happen to get into a game with the GM, thats named "Nagash_FFC" Your lucky, he is a great GM, and so far his game has been perfect.

Just wanted to let everyone know.

Yea, Nagash is doing a mighty fine job.
THERE'S SKELETONS EVERYWHERE I TELLS YA!

hehehe, yeah, Skeletons, But the MIGHTY DWARF can handle them.

Yeah, I haven't been in his game for long but I've got a really good feeling about it, I hope we survive ;)
This message was last edited by the player at 10:12, Fri 01 May 2009.

In reply to Tullyandy (msg #64):
Sounds like he's doing an *excellent* job, then. ;)

Warhammer books now available in PDF!  Check it out!

http://www.fantasyflightgames....ge_news.asp?eidn=615

OOC: Yet another zacaldo post out of place, keeping flakk at work, would like to if possible have my GAME NAME changed to a semi: IC character SENIOR CARDINAL IGNATO of the Cathedral of Illumination in hive Tarsus, Scintilla.  Just trying to give out a idea of my only speciality when it comes to GW, religion..... the Ecclesiastic buff.  Come on flakk you are a radical borderline heretic you need to go to CAPTAIN FLAKK and take over our Ork community!!! Rise up forum the Emperor is even in your breath.

"Senior Cardinal Ignato fully endorses Drive Thru RPG, for those new to it, not only is the priced halved to thirty percent off, you are given 5 downloads of each purpose so if one is lost or corrupted you can always get a replacement, and um.. "lend the PDF's to friends".
This message was last edited by the player at 21:04, Sat 20 June 2009.

Done and done and you can add in the other bits in your profile as you like=:)

I just got done reading "Slaves of Destiny" for my upcoming warhammer session.  One of my players is on this site so please do not respond with possible spoilers=:)

Anyway, just noticed one of the NPC's (I ran this before and did not clue in).
Kaspar Teuber
"His favourite story is about "fabled Katan" which he attempted to map in detail but the geography of which changed from day to day."

Nice inside joke for Catan fans=:)

FF has just announced that they are releasing a Warhammer card game (LCG, which I assume means that you don't need to buy booster upon booster of random cards and if I am wrong someone please enlighten me).

http://www.fantasyflightgames....ge_news.asp?eidn=652

Is "Invasion" the living card game worth the cash?  I have never played a FF living card game, created by a brilliant game designer so is spoken, but are FF living card games something that needs twenty boosters to play with?

Because the game sounds awesome and I generally do not approve of "any" card games as even the Holy Imperial Tarot is often turned into a game of chance by scum and gamblers of the lower hives. Often gamblers and gamers fall into the deadly sin of lust and greed draw to many a man and women into a heretic.

From the transmuted seedy lure of Slaneesh to the bloodlust of Khorne only to never to be heard from again........All tools are a weapon if you hold them right.  The Cardinal would love feedback from fellow followers of the Emperor on the subject as it has the cathedral of Illumination all abuzz.  Let the Living God Bless Your Light and Lead.

According to Graham McNeil's website, he's tried out the playtest version of WFRPG 3rd edition, and it looks like a complete change in system.

I like the change from percentile dice to dice pools, but then, I'm an nWoD/Shadowrun fan too :P

nooo, not more dice pools!

no wanna wanna. D% worked just fine...

Ah well. I don;t suppose I have to play it if I no wanna... there are still peeps on here playing 1st Ed D&D afterall!

3rd Edition?

Bah, you'll have no more money from me, Warhammer!

I love 2nd edition and am not a fan of dice pools so if there is a 3rd I'll still be playing second.  I used to play Mechwarrior 1st edition long after 2nd was out and have no problems staying with an "old" system as long as it works.

Bah, say I. I just bought the rest of the 2nd ed books. Like hell I'm gonna plunk out another fist full of cash for a whole new edition.

*Puts on grognard Hat*
You damn gamedesigners, get the hell away from my system.
Second edition was change enough

I have to agree with flakk, I am not a fan of Dice pool games either and will probably stick with 2nd ed.

How exactly do dice pools work with career based progression systems as I cant think of a game that uses both?

  Well, I'm certainly in the grognard camp on this, but I've also learned that rumours (especially about how GW/Hogshead/BI/FFG are ruining the system) need to be taken with a pinch of salt. I've tracked down what I think is the reference on McNeill's website:

"WFRP 3
A coupe of weeks ago, our regular roleplaying group was privileged enough to playtest 3rd Edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. The guys from Fantasy Flight Games were over at Games Workshop HQ, and Jay Little very kindly did a show and tell for us over at Alessio Cavatore’s house, where we saw how much the game has changed from its previous incarnation. Our gaming group has been going for some time and we were all interested to see what was new with WFRP, since we’d playtested the previous edition also. It was in interesting evening, and the game was very different to anything I’ve played before, with a lot of table space taken up by character sheets, action and ability cards, dice etc. It felt like a strange hybrid of board game and roleplaying game at first, but once the notions of the new mechanics took hold, it felt very natural. Likewise, the new dice pool system felt odd at first, but once we’d rolled a few dice it immediately became very intuitive, which is surely the holy grail of any roleplaying system.

By the time we’d despatched the goblins and rescued the coachman, we didn’t have much time left to play out the more interpersonal encounters of the intro game, but we’d already gotten our heads around the system and were already looking to develop our characters – which is a good sign in any playtest. Overall, I really liked the changes to the game, and it makes a nice change from sitting with my Players Handbook and a grubby character sheet. I’m liking what Jay has done with the game, and there’s a clear desire to make it fit properly with the Warhammer World, where a lot of the previous edition’s books, with the best will in the world, just didn’t."

If there's any truth to this, I've got to say it sends cold shivers down my spine:

"..a strange hybrid of board game and roleplaying game" (sounds suspiciously like turning it into something closer to a LCG)
"..a clear desire to make it fit properly with the Warhammer World" (read as code for 'Lets make it more like WFB')

What worries me is that they will start following the new WoW-esque backround that WFB is slowly developing. You know, where everything is morally black or white. Dark, evil and twisted means you just run around slaughtering things whilst laughing manically. And cunning plots are now capped at leading people out into big fields and jumping them when they aint looking.

*Cheers*
I'm glad we're on the same page :)

I think the 3rd edition is going to fail financially. The only reason 2nd edition took off (kind of) was due to a clearly flawed first system and the time between editions.

Whilst I'd be more likely to get 3rd edition, since I've only got the core WFRPG book, as getting into a new edition is better than buying into a no-longer supported edition.

                                                              "I am siding with flakk on this dispute,"
                                                                               Senior Cardinal Ignato

                                                scripted by Adepts Ronsenstern and Guildencrantz
                                                               at the official Conclave of Scintilla
                                                              and the Cathedral of Illumination.

The two Adepts some how went into the depths of the Cathedreal and came up with aged Mech Warrior I. Before there was even miniatures (Just card stand ups). Some of the oldest systems are the finest.  The Cardinal fears Tzeentch has seeped into gaming programs, turning every "role-playing" game into a vid game minus the arcane and fatly tech use owned by Chaos and their flat-screen HD televisions.  If it aint broke, break it and fix it up again.  The movement of gaming is in complete flux, keep your stubber ready when shopping at the local game store, the profiteers are most likely spawns of a greater Daemon.

Blessed be the man-stopper shell,
Forges Warm,
S.C.I.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:59, Fri 10 July 2009.

My worry would be that actually there's a reasonable chance that a 3rd ed would do really well. A game that is more WFB-friendly, (ie less Rat Catchers making deals to sell street urchins to the Skaven to keep Necromancers out of the sewers and more this Grail Knight, with his friends the Bright Wizard, the Dwarf Demon-Slayer, and the Elf Wardancer all storm the Necromancer's lair and slaughter everything that moves, dispatching the Skaven and the treacherous kid-napping Rat Catchers on their way home), may actually appeal more to a computer game-playing LOTR-watching generation of would-be gamers than something with a bit more subtlety, moral ambiguity, and a far lower power level (whose market is a bit more niche). Now that may be good news for WFRP TM, but not for the WFRP I know and love.

My biggest concern is that McNeill's comments suggest a fundamental shift in basic game mechanics in order to create something that feels more like the Warhammer World people are familiar with from WFB or computer games, which tends to be far less human-centric, far less interested in politics and society, far more straightfowardly heroic, and to operate on a far less realistic and more cinematic power level. The fact is, WFRP (and DH) operate on a conflict resolution system that is depressingly realistic - quite capable characters will generally succeed at a challenging task around half the time. Exceptionally talented specialists will succeed around 3 times out of 4. Your average Joe succeeds 1 time out of 4. An untrained loser either can't even try it or succeeds only about 1 in 10 times. Generally you have to hit people a few times in a fight before they die, no matter how good you are. If you get into a fight there is always a reasonable chance that something will go wrong and you'll be badly injured or die, no matter how good you are or what the odds are. Heroic fiction & films encourage us to expect a higher success rate than this. Changing the conflict resolution system will almost certainly change the probabilities of success and failure. My concern would be that it's a way of making things less grim and perilous.

While I enjoyed the BI version of Knights of the Grail (sucker that I am for chivalry spattered in mud) I'm inclined to agree with the apprehension you feel over what this might suggest about WFRP 3rd edition.

That said, I'm not terribly concerned. the important core parts of WFRP are covered in the current 2nd edition line, and I've never required a constant stream of new content to maintain my interest in a setting or system. I'll still be running WFRP 2nd as long as there's folk who want to play it.

The main problem when editions shift for me, is that as time goes on, it gets harder to find players for the older ones, as no new blood is brought on.

But at least in the short term, given the prevalence of good players on this board, that doesn't seem like a real problem.

WTF is this?

http://www.fantasyflightgames....20Ratcatchers%20Tale

It is clearly set in the Warhammer world (Altdorf is mentioned).....

Rumors are out that it is a teaser for 3rd edtion, a supplement, a stand alone system.....

I'd take it at face value as a piece of fluff - a guide to Altdorf's sewers, probably an annotated map, at $3 I seriously doubt it's much more. From the artwork I'd say production values are lower than I'd expect for a 3rd ed teaser too. What interests me is that it looks like it's the first release in a range of 'Ratcatcher's Tales'.

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!

Ugh, 3rd edition DO NOT WANT!

Galahad (Me) - "Can't I have just a little bit of peril?"
Lancelot (FFG) - "No, it's too perilous!"

It is my hope that everyone on the FFG board who has read this supposed 3rd Edition test play report rants a raves and sets fires and breaks windows until FFG realizes just how crappy the game will be if they go on.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:12, Wed 29 July 2009.

I am happy with playing second edition.  Just got back from a game of happy beastman slaying and plan on playing it until I can't find any players anymore.  PDF's here I come!  I'll be able to finish the collection.

I actually like the idea of the 3rd edition. It's not as though the entirity of the second edition line will just disappear and you'll never be allowed to play it again.

I demand you resign your position as a WFRP player immediately. That is entirely too reasonable a position to take on activities by the publisher. The minimal acceptable position on any new edition is: "Well, although clearly FFG/BI/Hogshead/GW are betraying the fanbase with their latest move I will hold off on boycotting all products they produce and burning them in effigy in the streets until I have had a chance to see the true level of awfulness this new product has sunk to." Actually suggesting that a new edition might be a good thing - that's just a step too far...

Yeah, lets start to throw the stones!

I'll take it in the jovial manner in which I interpretted it ;)

Jovial manner in the world of Warhammer? HERESEY!

Is "The Career Compendium" worth getting?  I already have most of the books so is there much new material?  Is it worth having as a GM?

That depends; I found it valuable for the utility of having all the careers in the game in one place. Some of the new careers are nice, but the only major drawback of the product is that FFG did not update the career entrances and exits to reflect the products out since the core book.

Well that was not smart=:)
Do the random career charts include all the new classes or is it still "if you roll this you can take this instead"?

In reply to flakk (msg #100):

The Career Compendium alone is enough for the players to create any character! So yes, it might worth. And there's additional informations about each careers: like of the Order of Witch Huner, the hierarchy, who do Witch Hunters, Witch Hunter captains need to report and such...

3rd edition......

http://www.fantasyflightgames....ge_news.asp?eidn=731

Well I'm not going to say no without seeing it but if it is not compatible with 2nd then I'll stick with second.  I love 2nd edition and at least now I'll be able to get all the books.

Cards!

Counters!

I was hoping that the posts we saw a month ago were just a bad dream.

Must keep calm, need semi-justifiable reason such as actual experiance to start ranting... That's a lie and I know it, I'm a GW vet i can rant about anything. Now where to begin?

You can take your action cards and [Content removed for moral and ethical reasons] with a donkey.

Dark times approach, be on your guard my friends, we can defeat this evil, as long as we remember the leasons of The Enemy Within and hold onto our 2nd ed core rulebooks we can be victorious, we can save WFRP.

99 bucks, character counter boxes, thirty-six Dice?

Screw that. I have an edition that works just fine, thank you.

I actually really like the look of the new edition, and will be buying it as soon as it is released in the UK.

Everything I'd ever need to run a Warhammer Fantasy game, including tonnes of background, all in one box and all for £50? Sounds like a sweet deal to me!

Cards, counters, tokens, spec dices... cold shakes me... Why do I feel that they made this, to make it impossible to distribute through net?

I must say that the only reason I'd contemplate shelling out £50 for a new edition that looks less like the sort of game I'd want to play than 2nd ed does right now is that it does look like a more attractive way to introduce younger players and non rp'ers to the game. Having said that, my kids are a good few years off being able to engage with it.

The fact that this means that 2nd ed is going to be left without further support apart from continued sale of pdfs is really sad. I'd be amazed, Millandson, if this genuinely means that they are not going to release expansions and add-ons. Can they really keep the product afloat just on the sales of the core box set and releasing adventures regularly? Or are they essentially viewing this as a board game now, meaning that they're not anticipating releasing much in the way of new product until a new edition?

I honestly feel that this edition will not survive for more than 1-2 supplements.

And the thing that makes me really laugh is the way that this is described as an innovative new approach to gaming, when what it really sounds like is...

<IMG SRC="http://www.geocities.com/sbaloban/ADV2.h4.jpg">

Does anyone else remember this?

It works out at £60 not £50 and that is likely to be higher by the time it comes out.

Why can I see them producing dungeon layout packs with a board and minatures? Well at least this is not a poorly disguised attempt to attract the WoW crowd WFRP... oh. Well at least the other games in the warhammer universe have not been getting changed to allow idiots with full wallets to play without the need to activate their few brain cells... Crap. At least the hobby is affordable... oh come on there has to be something?

Well, the current conversion rates are fluctuating so much that it could be either ;)

And I don't see them going with boards and miniatures, and it still looks like a full RPG, and isn't aimed at idiots. Describing anyone who thinks the game is good as an "idiots with full wallets [who want] to play without the need to activate their few brain cells" is highly insulting, and not the sort of opinion I'd have thought I'd have seen the generally mature Warhammer RP fanbase hold.

I say give it a chance. £50-60 for 4 books and all that stuff is brilliant value for money, and looks like it might be a very interesting system/direction for FFG to go in.

WTF IS THIS SHIT?!

Oh please tell me they're just putting out two products with the same fucking name!

ARRGH!

No, Psycko, even FFG aren't that crazy. The traditional solution to such dilemmas is to kill the original product...

That is not my opinion of WFRP and DH. That is my opion of the current wargames produced by games workshop, namely 40K. The whole reason I stick with WFRP and DH is because they present players with challenges and tasks that dont have just one approach to solve.

Which is exactly what the new WFRP is being designed to do, given what it says in the big description of the game on the FFG site.

I am speechless...........

Thankfully there will alway be a challenge to roleplay games as long as your GM is good and knows what he is doing, but I dont know, I'm getting the strange feeling that the game will want me to solve all my problems with death, albeit varied death from a wide range of action cards. They do seem to be pumping the whole you can be a combat monster of doom and darkness especially by making the starting careers of note a troll slayer, a whitch hunter, a waywatcher and a bright wizard. It just has that DnD 4th ed feeling where social interaction etc will pushed to the side in favour of dungeon bashing and related activities.

I will accept that the best way to get the wider GW costmer base onto the rpg scene is to let them be the uber heros of epic-ness that they have leading their armies, but in doing that, it alienates 1st and 2nd ed WFRP players by radically changing the setting in which they play the game. The grim dark setting is no longer grim and dark because you are just and everyday person dealing with the horrors of the world, but is moving towards the war is everything and we only have 14 hours to save the earth concept of grim darkness.
This message was last edited by the player at 10:44, Thu 13 Aug 2009.

According to one of the playtesters in this thread:

http://forum.strike-to-stun.ne...rder=asc&start=0

You'd have no problem running any of the campaigns or anything from v2, and isn't as combat/uber heavy as some might think. In fact, social stuff is covered better than in any other WFRP rules.

Doesn't the FFG wants to go into liquidation? There would be no support for WFRP and it would get stucked at it where it is right now, like what happened with the 1 ed, but then no "shit" like this would come out under the sobriquet of WFRP and the WFRP community wouldn't split apart...

I'm just afraid to think, what will happen to Dark Heresy...

Fair enough, you seem to be in a far calmer and open minded state than I am at the moment so I will yield on this point for now. I will wait utill I have more information before taking my ranting to the next stage. I do however resever the right to swear loudly if the queezy feelings I'm getting about this game are justified.

All being said I would like to appologies to MILLANDSON and anyone else that took offence at my earlier comments about the current GW games being designed for idiots. I wont say that I dont believe it, but suggesting that everyone who plays GW games is an idiot was wrong and simply (and thankfully) untrue.
This message was last edited by the player at 11:57, Thu 13 Aug 2009.

I wouldn't worry about Dark Heresy for the moment; especially not as Rogue Trader seems to be functioning off the same system.

A side note if anyone's interested: a blogger got some pics of the 3rd ed stuff at GenCon

http://thehopelessgamer.blogspot.com/

Oh dear god.  Are we seeing WHRP's answer to DnD 4thed?

In reply to Tyrfingr (msg #124):

Everything seems to point that way. 2e works great for me, it is the upgraded Monsters and Magic. I just want to play it before I commit $99 to it. I paid $34 for WFRP 2, with all magic rules in it, a GM section, and it is my favorite fantasy game. Seriously, cards and 'special dice'?

I'll have to try it out.

I'll tell you what it's like, because I'm certainly going to buy it. I've spent more money than that on core books to run RPGs with before, so £50-60 is nothing new.

I'm not kidding myself, I'll probably buy it.

The Gencon pics remind me of Dragon Strike.

To what extent do you think certain careers are limiting? I've been thinking on it recently, having a priestess of Shallya in one of my games. It seems a few careers, such as:

Bailiff
Burgher
Charcoal Burner
Coachmen etc. Are actual jobs and it is in truth quite difficult to give them a reason to be adventuring, when they can quite easily settle down somewhere.

Your thoughts?

Don't forget Soldier, Servant, Toll Keeper, Tradesman, Valet, Watchman, and Ferryman. Even some of the advanced careers like Artisan and Guild Master.

All those jobs don't seem like a starting point (or stepping stone in the case of the advanced) to be an adventurer, but thats sort of the point. No one starts out life saying "I'm gonna wander around doing whatever the hell I want, and just maybe make money while doing that." It's the decision that comes on later in life, more like: "This sucks... I'm getting the hell out of here."

With the Advanced careers, if your local Artisan wants to go adventuring, it's probably because he sees profit in it. Or if a Guild Master goes out adventuring, he might just be brought on as a coordinator or leader, given his incredible people skills. It's all about thinking in realistic terms as to what you'd be doing adventuring when you already have a lucrative (or at least somewhat lucrative) position.

I was also of the opinion that those careers facilitate different sorts of gaming, such as area-based storylines. A Guildmaster (for example) allows you to run a game based around rival guild politics and mercantile intrigue.

As all too many gamers seem to forget in this day of video games and Dragon-smashing High Fantasy, there's far more to gaming then kicking ass and taking names. Sometimes you're just trying to take over the criminal underworld of Altdorf, or vying for the right to display your priceless work of art at an Averland wine-tasting.

The Senior Cardinal Ignato fears not for DH or those filthy Rouge Traders.  WHFRP is causing more stir than Cardinal Aspartamine Xanax and his cross-dressing and minor Slaanesh worshiping.  I think the whole "disinformation" act by both sides and sides that are at askew angles.

I see the problems?  I can see what FFG was asked to do with WHFRP after being basically neglected?  FFG keeps saying "interfacing" it is worse than the major Cable Networks working with Turner babbling chaotic verse such as "synergy".  I can see the D&D 4th ed. with better artwork?

My question first off, in all the nonsense, commotion and most importantly wasted time what would you have done if you were forced by las-pistol to the temples and asked for "your" idea for a 3rd edition?  And you can't say not make one that is obvious, those who enjoy 2nd and have remarked "it is my favorite game?"  Then my final question is why do any of us whose favorite game is 2nd Edition WHFRP even care if this was edition 3.1415926535897932384626433832795?  It aint broke?

No game needs more books as least as WHFRP in my opinion  (And all I care about is meaty supplements for the most part)  but look at just the fan pages, fan work, fan rules, WHFRP is a game that has more fictional history than most RL countries documented past's for the Emperor's sake.

Although WHFRP players wanted more, FFG wanted more, and everyone wants it two days ago?  Greed by the consumers and retailers sounds faintly similar to the economic shape of this heavenly body, why would a Fantasy one be any different?

The FF forums have become a mockery of itself, give us more, give us more even the sewer dregs and low level mutants beg less.  Just look what FFG has put out this year, anyone close? The Gen-Con joke should have been harsher by their little attempt at laughter by showing three different size packages with a simple question mark, swearing they will never promote another idea online again, just keep me in the loop not the hamster wheel.   Stick to your system, trust in the Emperor for light and lead and always be careful for what you don't ask for...
This message was last edited by the player at 06:51, Mon 17 Aug 2009.

From FFG forum.

"One: there is nothing stopping you from running any size group you want from the core box. The Adventure Pack adds some additional career cards and some spare dice but the core comes with around 30 career cards as it is. Sure you might not have the nifty storage box for more than 3 characters, but just use an envelope or note what cards you need to pull next time. Additionally you could just transfer the info from the cards to your character sheet.

Two: they are doing some really cool stuff with the cards, they're not just there for the heck of it. The cards actually get rid of the need for a lot of the charts. For example when you take a wound you pull a wound card and place it face down in front of you. If at some point you are critted, just flip your top wound card over and there is the crit. Insanity is also handled like this with an Insanity deck.

Three: The party has a character sheet! Their is a fortune pool for the party and a party tension tracker that has some fatigue effects as party tension ratchets up in play. This stress is added based purely on the GMs observation of the party's roleplaying. Also characters can tag some of their abilities to the party for the benefit of all.

Four: every character has a "Stance" track with a conservative side and a reckless side to it that affects all their abilities and spells that they use based on which side of the track they are currently choosing to be on (and yes you can change which stance you are in often - usually every round). Different careers have different amounts of conservative vs reckless on their track and how far out on on one side or the other you currently are will have a greater affect on how things work out. It should be noted that all abilities and all spells have both a conservative and an aggressive version which have their own bnefits and drawbacks and they are handily summarized on opposite sides of their cards.

Five: The dice are integral to the whole system. You have dice for your ability. You swap some of those out for dice that represent your aggressive or conservative stance. Instead of modifiers for circumstances or tactics you add fortune or misfortune dice. There are a few other types that account for some other factors. Making the dice pools is going to be incredibly easy as you form your initial pool by reading right off the character sheet and the fortune/misfortune dice are given out by the gm as he  describes the circumstances and you describe what you are doing and any tactics.

Six: This is not either a board game or a miniature game and does not require either a map or miniatures any more than current WFRP does.

Seven: The reason the careers are on cards is so that as more careers are added you just slip them in the career deck and have them all in one place rather than scattered over multiple books and supplements. Ditto for ability cards and spell cards.

Eight: Character generation - first you choose your race, then you draw three career cards and choose one. Or if you want to play hardcore you draw only one career and suck it up. Or (if you are a hippy, tree hugging elf - my words not theirs) you could just choose a career. Careers function very much like now with advances and skills. If you choose to leave your career without 'completing' it (i.e. take a certain number of your advances and skills) then you don't keep your career's special bonus. If you do complete your career you keep the special from your career. For the ratcatcher this would be the small but vicious dog (who apparently has his own abilities and is essentially your little, and vicious, minion). Note that you can still choose to buy skills not in your current career for a premium with gm approval."

In reply to Nagash_FFC (msg #133):

Finally some useful information! I knew the cards weren't just for cards sake. I like the party character sheet idea. Thanks for the info. I will still want to play it to try it out.

I remain unswayed, but I'm notoriously stubborn ^_^

In reply to TheWarriorPoet519 (msg #135):

It shows in your continuous attempts to kill Vil. Ceiling zombies? That was mean.

Well I certainly hope the cards werent just for cards sake, but it's just as simple to print out a PDF page if you want a quick reference to a specific career.  The whole 'take 3 randoms cards and choose 1 career' thing isn't exactly novel, either. It's more like a house ruling that a lot of people use with 2nd ed random career rolls (but I guess it's cooler to draw cards than it is to roll dice?).

I really need to see the system in action, then I could dub wether or not it was worthy. Regardless of worthiness my wallet still says no.

In reply to Darius (msg #137):

Heresy! Dice are way cooler than cards.

http://www.fantasyflightgames....ia/wfrp3seminar.html

After watching this seminar some things are still seems alien to me, but as I think more of the system I like it more. Maybe this is how chaos entangles the acceptant minds?

Is it me, or did they just get rid of WS and BS?

Nope, those are still there, but became basic skills instead of characteristics.

Then whats up with the success/failure dice?

I quite liked what the guy holding the seminar explained, when is the release date?

Fall 2009

Nice... price is hefty but the concept is really intriguing.
I have had great experiences with Savage Worlds as a fast paced system...
WFRP 3rd seems to be that way.

And as always with a RPG, it is only as good as your group makes it.

Unfortunately, it also seems as though its play style is completely unsuited to formats such as rpol. It's live or nothing with this thing... And as I don't play live... ^_^

I agree its hard to find time to get together.... but maybe I will find a way.
Would involve rolls exclusively by the GM, the dicesystem would add to that, and lots of photos of the cards etc. linked on photobucket.

In reply to Araxosch (msg #147):

Which leaves those of us who don't want to scan and copy a bunch of cards, or take the rolls completely out of the player's hands... With the efficient 2nd edition that is already complete and already works perfectly fine ^_^

of course. but the system is rather intresting nonetheless.

After reciving some more information i think the biggest annoyance for me is all the bloody dice and what every little result means.....
2.ed was simple with 2d10 for sucess/failure. Yeah sure it could limit it sometimes, but this edition?

Yeah the dicetells me that i avoided the guards vut it took longer then expected so the meeting i intended to spy on is over, and the two black skulls indicate that i also encountered a rabid yet strangley attractive hamster.......

Yeah i might be insane, what you going to do about it?
This message was last edited by the player at 17:56, Sun 23 Aug 2009.

Except that at least one playtester has said that that can all be ignored by RAW, if you so wish.

Anyone got any good (and updated) site with resources? I remember Black Industries had a long list of fan pages and fan-created material, but I don't have those links anymore. I've tried searching and looking around, but can't really find much useful. Which is surprising. Specifically I'm looking for various tools and organizers, like excel character/career sheets, etc. Actually, I would like nothing more than an updated excel sheet. Found one, but it was first of all not very good, and secondly it was very old. (And don't go "make one yourself" with me, because I know there ought to be some out there, and besides I own nothing but the rulebook having had GMs for supplements...)

In reply to Northman (msg #152):

The old BI site's back up now, actually. Go here : http://web.archive.org/web/200...ies.com/?template=BI

http://www.fantasyflightgames....ge_news.asp?eidn=778

Ummmmmm........no thanks.

Yeah.  I'm trying really hard not to be too down about this new edition, but damn they are making it hard.  Really really hard.

*follows link*

*stares at page*

*commits ritual suicide*

In reply to Andrensath (msg #153):

Neat. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.


---

Hmm... That's an awful lot of dice. I could've bought perhaps 3 different types (and initially thought it was only about that many), but that many?. I try to stay open-minded about the edition, but I'm going from liking, to disliking, to liking, to disliking the new edition with every bit of new information. So I guess I'll read a designer's diary next week that has me thinking "hmm, okay, that seems smart. Maybe it's not as bad after all?" etc etc.....

I actually liked the new system till that.. Now I don't know if I'm going to bother with it..

Impossible to see how this could be fun or quicker play with this kind of DICE CLUSTER F***..... rage came out

If anything, this looks both hard to play and unexciting. By my count, that's already 2 strikes.

Make a climb check at -10, -10 ST and halved if you don't have the skill or.............<5 minutes of decisions and arranging of dice later>.......

The positive thing about all this is that it save me $100 because I am not going to buy 4th and now I will be able to get all the 2nd edition books.  One or two every other month for a year, maybe more, and I'll have them all=:)

Make a climb check at -10, -10 ST and halved if you don't have the skill or.............<5 minutes of decisions and arranging of dice later>.......

The positive thing about all this is that it save me $100 because I am not going to buy 4th...er I mean 3rd, and now I will be able to get all the 2nd edition books.  One or two every other month for a year, maybe more, and I'll have them all=:)

The Senior Cardinal Ignato is in full agreement with flakk, 3rd edition just put a whole slew of PDF's on RPG drive thru, if you are so inclined.  And will probably turn some defectors to part with 2nd edition material.  Evil-Bay will probably have a few garage sales where a collector could pick up everything 2nd for a couple hundred bucks.

I see no problem in FFG trying something new, I posted this before and after all the complaining on all the forums no one will answer the question "What would you have done with Warhammer 3rd Edition?".

Games flop, but this one will not, there is a large breach in age groups with gamers.  Online gaming and the slow but steady rise in RPG in general in the last few years has lead to a dramatic shift in the dreaded Ruinous Power Word of the Year "Inter-Facing".

Interface: noun: a point where to systems, groups, organizations, subjects interact and meet.  Wow, that makes synergy look like a perfectly useful new word.

 Role-Playing is interfacing, so basically we all have figured out by now FFG has basically turned and changed the "settings" on a video game controller, not much else.  But it is simple, comes with "party sheets", gone Days of Wonder with the dice, I wonder if they have a "party lampshade" included in the collector's edition for those who frequent the bar to often and their group tension meter which runs like my used hover bike.

We are at an age where it seems their is a great discrepancy between age groups.  You don't think FFG did some research on this, any one on the forums that are not just their for you, you are being watched by them.  Them has realized the younger group of gamers are more up for this style of game.  Forget Marketing the games, do you have any idea the research that goes into something like this, besides play-testing.

The Cardinal is well aged for a gamer, old, not methuselah, although I have played some ridiculously old games and they are just as good now as then.  But even a full outright boycott of 3rd addition will not stop the machine, look at the games released and where FFG is heading.  "Invasion", more youth oriented games any one that would like to argue the fact that LGG are not for kids, you forgot to eat your Trix silly rabbit.

In my opinion FFG has done a wonderful job this year of handling a hard transition year.  Rouge Trader, Chaos in the Old World, so many supplements it is dizzying.  And the direction FFG and Ross have taken with RT and DH is that it looks to be building up like WFRP did years ago, then in ten years, 2nd edition for DH and RT will come out and look like WHFRP 3rd edition and we will be having this whole conversation again.

So once again, the Conclave asks, "What would you do to the 3rd edition?".  Come up with a better product than FFG and I will buy it from you via Pay-Pal and eat it, or play it. To all Americans who are gaming this Labor day, remember how much free time you had because someone died in a mine or a factory working 7 twelve hour shifts a week, all they asked for was a little more free time to enjoy life.

We have been blessed with more games and leisure activities than Sultans, Kings and Emperors and still we are disgruntle and bored.  Yeah, first, second, third edition at least they are still producing something, as the Senior Cardinal always says, "What ever floats your Old World".  Let the Living Saints and the Emperor watch over our souls and percentile rolls..........

If I could choose what to do with third.....it would be a more up to date rule system with some of the "new" rules from DH like point blank range, different way to use FPs, perception as an attribute etc.  Nothing major, just a slight overhaul that would be compatible with 2nd but with enough new things to make it worthwhile to get if someone had some extra cash floating around.

I think my head may explode... why does the Compendium give Initiate result rolls to all races?

I'm inclined to agree with Flakk - I'd have liked to see the DH stuff integrated, as well as some modest integration of new rules from supplements. There's been occasional introduction of new talents/traits and stuff that it would be nice to bring within the main rulebook. I'd like to see the expanded magic & divine stuff all in the main rulebook too. Perception as a stat is long overdue. To be honest, taking WS and BS off the statline and making them skills could be a step foward too.

However, reading your post Flakk, I can see why it didn't happen. Can you hear the sales pitch on it? "Well, there's no major changes, it's pretty much just a shinier version of 2nd ed rather than being a new edition. It'll be something people will buy if they have some extra cash floating around they don't know what to spend it on...". "Uh huh. So we're imagining we'll shift about as many copies as we have of any other supplement, and most people will just manage without it, yeah?"

The problem is, there really isn't much wrong with 2nd ed. And supplements find increasingly small markets, because let's face it, all of us think hard about whether we really need a sixth or seventh wfrp book on our shelves, and most of us have our own distinct 'take' on what makes wfrp which means that although we all want the core rules, some of us are going to want to buy an Elf or Dwarf book (for example) and some of us aren't. I don't like the look of 3rd ed (not that I think there's anything intrinsically wrong with the mechanics of it, but I can't easily integrate it with the WFRP stuff I've already got, and I've already got a rules set I like and that works, so I see no need to trade it in wholesale for a completely different one), and I think it's been a huge mistake on their part to release it the way they have (using a great new ruleset they've got an idea for as a completely different game rather than releasing it as 3rd ed, effectively killing 2nd ed as a game would have saved everyone a lot of angst), but I can see why they had to do something, and simply releasing WFRP 2.5 wasn't going to fly.

In reply to Darius (msg #165):

Because all races have Gods? Just because Elves don't get divine spells even with Tome of Salvation doesn't mean they don't have organized worship.

In reply to Andrensath (msg #167):

But they have no spell list apart from Khaine, and theres no dwarf or halfling god spell list. Makes that + magic kinda pointless, not to mention that there never has been a halfling priest of anything, except maybe pies.

Theres also the fact that only humans can be Initiates in the base book.

http://www.fantasyflightgames....ge_news.asp?eidn=820

Well, we have been given our first look at character creation in Warhammer Quest WFRP 3rd ed.

I really am not sure about points buy and the whole pick a 'card any card' career selection just feels daft.

I know you can really screw over a character in second edition but the randomness of dice roles for stats did add a certain something to the whole character creation process.

One thing is becoming obvious as we find more out about this game. It is going to be damn hard to run it over rpol.

Oh. And at what point in the background of Warhammer have Wood Elves shown themselves to be naturally more stoic and have a grater amount of will power than the dwarves?

Since it became more popular to portray elves as superior in every way to most all other races. This has been the case in the wargame for some time now.

Bollocks, but that's what it is.

So now your not just a dwarf, you're a Azgarazk dwarf.  It's an interesting system their moving towards.

I do agree, I miss the fun in the randomness of the die rolls.  Do you think they're moving farther away from the grittiness of the world?

Try impossible. I couldn't run it on rpol.

I do think the system is losing some of it's grittiness, however I do not think it is due to what FFG are doing with their licence and more to do with what GW are doing with their own background.

Since they went public, the company focus changed, they are more focused on selling the latest product than what the gamer wants, beyond that their focus audience has become younger, and so to sell to their new less attententive, less ethically aware (insert long rant about humanity etc) audience they have taken their background simplified it.

Where as before grim dark was the infiltration of high society by perverted pleasure cults twisting the good to evil etc, grim dark is now just a warrior cutting a bloody path through a battle field described in the goriest way possible (insert long rant about GW and teenage war porn).

The background has taken on a WoW, DnD 4th ed black and white system of morality, there is some grey patches but it is not the invocative background that was being produced a few years back.

http://www.fantasyflightgames....ge_news.asp?eidn=841

Our first look at WFRP 3rd ed combat. Well actually its an article on how to work out intiative in a encounter situation, with  a 'this is used for combat' qualifier at the bottom.

I know I have not been the most gracious of critics regarding the new edition of WFRP but FFG seem to be doing their best to promote useless bits of tat (I will admit that it is high quality, good looking tat, but tat non the less) to experianced rpg players and GMs.

We dont need a puzzle to work out intiatives and keep track of them, we are quite capable of writing it down on paper, the advantage of the latter being we can make notes of important things that happen regarding the fight next to it.

I understand that FFG are trying to make things to reduce the clutter around the table when playing by giving us all these cards etc (I doubt it will work, we will just have a different sort of mess in the end), but saying this is good because you dont need to use paper is daft when the very nature of the activity requires a GM to have pencil and paper on hand to make notes etc.

My opinions on FFG asside, I am not sure I like the idea of players rolling individual initiatives and then basically swapping them as they see fit. It has a certain meta-gaming feel to it. The reason a dwarf that rolls a low initiative goes last is because he is slower than everyone else, having an elf next to him does not give him a speed boost.

So what are you playing right now?  Homebrew?  Published material?  I am running an awesome group through "Terror in Talabheim" <no spoilers please> and before that they finished "Ill Met in Boggenhafen", "Slaves of Destiny", and "Pretty Things".  Some of the PC's are getting close to their second career and I am having a blast running the game (2 burnt fate points and several insanity points scattered amongst the group).I always include my "own" material in the scenarios and really enjoy the premade stuff that I have played or ran so far.

Currently using published material, mainly due to time constraints from real life and it's the first time I've GM'd in almost 15 years!

Running Thousand Thrones on RPOL, characters are still conducting initial investigations in Marienburg and haven't run in to any trouble yet and also joined a Terror In Talabheim game as a player, but haven't heard from the GM on there in two weeks.

Unfortunately I don't play face to face anymore, my role playing friends have moved away and teh only group I know of that plays nearby meet on a Saturday, which is no good to me as it's football day (that's proper football where you use your feet by the way for our American cousins, I refuse to use the "S" word).

Yah getting togther in real life can be hard.  I am lucky to have found a group in my city, and we probably get together 3 times a month to play short sessions (long gone are my 12 hour gamne sessions on the weekends).  Most of my gaming is here with probably an hour a night on posting and my own GMing, at least during the work week.

Massive sale on the FFGG site.  $5 second edition books!  Got six for $66.89 and got every single book I do not already have.  Check it out!

Woot!  The books I ordered from FFG's sale arrived yesterday.  With the UPS fee the six books came to $79 USD (And with the Canadian dollar at nearly par the difference was negilable).  Now I need to find the time to read them all.  "Realms of Sorcery" is first on my list:). Happly early Xmas to me.

Just pondering, it has been sometime since I last posted on this game but one thing that confuses me drastically, why is it so hard to find a chaos themed game? Is it because surviving as chaos is hard. (Trust me, there are a LOT of mutants out there, I'm sure you can find some to mingle with/break necks)

I feel that chaos has the ability to allow you to really create a character with a legacy, as a scourge of the Empire, especially since Mutations make the character a whole new flavour and add a depth unperceived in the original game.

SOCCER!

Snotball?

I bought a buttload of the second edition books at my local gameing store, but didn't realize they were only five bucks on their website.

I also got the new edition boxed set. What is the verdict? what do people say about it?

In reply to nareik123 (msg #180):

For my part it's that I'm not interested in playing a scourge of the empire, or running for a group that wants to. Evil games aren't my bag, neither are Fight the Establishment types. Doesn't explain the total lack, but it does explain my own reasons for not dabbling in that.

Is there any interest in trying WFRP3 here at rpol?

One of the hurdles of course would be the dice.  It'd be doable to map the results to the current dice roller; but, even better would be if we could get development working on a specific or generic implementation.

Whether you like this idea or not it'd be nice to see this sub-community vote on it:

link to a message in another game

This message was deleted by the player at 16:46, Wed 24 Feb 2010.

I'm planning on running "The Haunting Horror" as a one-shot next weekend for a buddy of mine.  This is from the "Plundered Vaults" book.  Any suggestions?

Please no spoilers as players might be prying=:)  Private lines and messages would be most excellent.

It looks pretty straight forward and will be an easy one to run after many "refreshments"=:)  I am hoping it can be finished in 3 or 4 hours, and if not then I'll finish it up here on RPOL.  It's been way too long since Aussie Mike and I have had a live session and he is dusting off his old character for it (1100 xp Elven seaman) and I am dusting off some familiar NPC's for him to band with (800xp Outlaw/Slave, 800xp Vagabond/Thief and 900xp Student/Initiate of Verena).

If I remember correctly that one is nice enough to run. It got a big DnD feel though compared to most adventures. I ran it with my old team a while ago, there were no hiccups.

Yah, it does have a dungeon crawl feel to it by the looks of things.  A nice beer and pretzel adventure I hope.

My issue has always been that it's a solo game. Otherwise, one person is a tyrant and in charge and likely eating the others... literally. Not to mention, the Chaos powers in the Old World/40K are truly evil. It's one thing to play an evil wizard, quite another to play a baby-eating spawn of the blood-god. That's pushing my comfort and interest level. Possibly others too since there's a dearth of those games.

I would tend to agree.  I ran a solo game for a friend where his character had committed a terrible crime that he was deeply ashamed of and wanted forgiveness for, when he discovered by dribs and drabs that he was mutating into something awful.  We didn't get terribly far, unfortunately, but what we did get through was some marvelous stuff.

As cool as that was, I don't know how well that would have worked with more than one person (since a lot of the drama came from the fact that the PC would have these nightmares and wake up from them with blood around his mouth or something else suggesting midnight unpleasantness - with more than one PC, someone surely would witness what was happening to him and spoil the mystery and suspense), and I think it required a player willing to delve into that sort of personal horror without going whole hog into that "Hot diggity, it's baby-eating time!" attitude.  I think gothic horror requires a character fully capable of realizing that his soul is in jeopardy, rather than someone who couldn't give a fig about their crumbling humanity, chomping at the bit to make sacrifices to Khorne.

Still, there could be fun in a game where everyone's a mutant outlaw, or even members of a Chaos cult infiltrating society...but yeah, you've definitely got to have players discuss what degree of squick they're willing to experience.

Speaking of evil I'd love to play in a Skaven game=:)  Heck, I'm going to head over to the GM wanted thread and beg a little...

See now that's cool... unwilling mutants, driven to a life of grim survival and petty crime. Slowly mutating more and more. That could be a real interesting game and very "warhammer-esque" in that it ain't gonna end with rainbows. No matter what.

I wouldn't mind running a game set in the chaos wastes, where everyone is not turning on each other all the time and have a common goal starting off low level and cooperating to increase their warbands power and influence to unleash hell into the old world. It can be done with good rping. Mutation would not be much of an issue but will you become a daemon prince or mewling spawn. Dark twisted cities, strange landscapes....

North Norsca would probably be better starting, because anything in the wastes would be mutated or dead in a couple of days.

Low level characters would not go to the waste to seek out power, they would battle outside of it get stronger and then go there to kick arse, sell their soul, find some magic armour and decide that the end of all life is a good idea.

Well there are lots of northern marauder tribes and such...I was thinking along those lines and not necessarily ex-empire people etc though I'm sure it could be worked into a group. I know further towards the polar regions and the gates the more of a mutating influence there is but is mutation and spawning that quick I would have thought it was more subtle.

What are the opinions of people on rolling for random careers? There is a lot that I like about it but I fear that if I were to use it in the game I'll be starting up that 75% of my players will lose interest quickly because they aren't trollslayers and bright wizards and other "chosen ones."

I most often let people roll twice and let them choose which one they like best. Unless they are Skavens ofcourse. Most often this work reasonably well.

Would it be possible to break down the class chart into categories so that a player would get a result more geared towards the type of character they want to create?

For instance, you could have a chart for intellectual/magic types, a chart for roguish/skillful types and a chart for militant types.

In each chart there'd be a range of different classes they could end up with, but they'd generally follow the character archetype the player wanted.

It should be. That's how it worked in 1st ed - you decided on whether you were Warrior, Ranger, Rogue or Academic and then rolled to find out your career within those broad archetypes. I'm against completely random career generation unless everyone has said up front they're completely happy with any career. Otherwise you end up with players who aren't happy with their characters, and that's not fun for anyone (personally I'd hate to be a Trollslayer, but give me a Ratcatcher or a Vagabond anyday). Giving people a choice of two is better.

There is one in The Thousand Thrones.  I will post a modified version of it in the house rules thread.

The Career Compendium did the same. They used the Academic, Rogue, Commoner, Warrior, Ranger tables. I think there was a web update for everyone to use. See if I can find it now that FFG took down lots of their stuff.

In my TEW game, I started everyone with 200xp. They could spend 100xp to pick a table (as above) or 200xp to pick a particular career.
This message was last edited by the player at 13:32, Thu 25 Mar 2010.

What I decided to do for my game is to let people pick their career but if they want to roll random I am rewarding them with 300 xp. I'm hoping this will get me a few "normal" characters instead of a bunch of trollslayers and bright wizards.

link to another game

Interesting.
You'll have to post us the results, I'm expecting some cliche' characters.

My TEW campaign (tabletop) ended up with

Human Initiate
Human Thug
Human Coachwoman
Elven Hunter
Halfling Newsheet Vendor
Dwarven Miner

Some of them picked tables for 100xp and a few went all random.
This message was last edited by the player at 01:17, Fri 26 Mar 2010.

to be honest i always let people choose their character concepts, but i may have been lucky that i have some well thought out pcs rather than the lone 'i have no family or friends left cop-outs'

That's not a bad mix to be honest.
If the group have too many of one career it gets boring very quickly I find.

What book is the newsheet vendor from?

Career compendium... pretty worthless except he has literacy. He's the only one who rolled a pretty lame character but he's been having fun with it.

And that's the important thing=:)  Is the CC worth it?  I have most of the books thanks the FFG clearance sale.  Is there anything new in the CC that makes it worthwhile?

The CC is awesome. Everything right there at your fingertips. And every career entry has a sample personality, three campaign hooks and an organization. I really liked it. It updates all the career entries/exits for all of them, and has tables for rolling careers based on the old WFRP (academic, rogue etc), regional and race.

Definitely worth the money for my group. No more borrowing my MRB to look at their Career Exits around the table.

Great!  I might have to pick one up....or better yet convince one of my players to get one.  Maybe the first one to die will get the honour=:)

What an odd career to put into the WFRP setting given that most people in the Old World can not actually read. And why exactly does being newsheet vendor give you the ability to read?

Of course on the flip side choosing the career would mean that you have a lot of free time for adventuring which is known to be a very productive activity with many oppertunities to get rich.

It sounds like the sort of lame busy-work a printer's apprentice would be set to do.  "You've cleaned off all the printing blocks?  Scraped off all the parchment?  Swept the floors?  Humm...let's see.  Here, take these sheaves and, I don't know, pass them out on the street.  Maybe it'll drum up some business."

Either that, or what the apprentices get up to with the press when the master's away...

Yes, WarHammer does seem to take place in a world where one would more likely see town criers than news sheets....

I mean, so long as you ignore the fact that tanks, machine guns and flamer throwers (outside of Chinese war machines of questionable effectiveness) exist.

Yea, but the newsheet vendor career is aimed at the big cities where people were more literate (mainly due to the amount of middle/upper class.) in the 17th Century.

Using the above character creation rules I have:

Human Vagabond
Human Ratcatcher
Human Baliff
Human Seaman
Dwarf Watchman (he actually rolled trollslayer legitimately and passed on it. I wasn't sad.)

The end of Strike to Stun.....


http://www.strike-to-stun.net/...10/04/time-of-change


_{April Fools!=:)}

The worst thing about April Fools is when you have to work it. Because you forget all about it. Then you get about 3 emails (or Rpol posts) that you read the headline and go... "WTFNO!" And, in the midst of hastily hitting the "Reply" button, you shake your head... and damn the Harlequins of the World. ;-)

So what baddies do you like to throw at your PCs?  I recently used both trolls and bonechewers for the first time recently and had great fun with them.  Ogres and Rat Ogres failed miserably when my PCs fought them.....they must have been "little" ones so I can forsee some tweaking for the next time.

Buying Past Talents/Skills

I can't find anything in the book on this. If I go from Scribe to Wizard's Apprentice to Mercenary... as a Mercenary, can I go back to Wizard's Apprentice and purchase a skill or talent?

One of my players is contemplating this and I don't think it's possible. If it was possible, you could rush through Careers picking up all the Characteristic Advances and then go back to fill out with skills and talents.

I must admit that most of the baddies I've used have been cultists and/or mutants.

However, I think my favorites have been Skaven.  I love the whole "there's no such thing as rat-men" belief; the scritching of claws beneath the flagstones, the people going missing, the mysterious murders that seem impossible because "There's no exit from the chamber!  How did they get in, and how did they escape?!"  They can be comic, but they can also be very disturbing.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:34, Thu 29 Apr 2010.

I tend to put no bad guys in, at least untill the VERY end, just let the PC's screw themseles over!

If you muster out of a career early then you can't go back to it (at least that is my understanding). It also costs 200 xp each time you switch careers without completing your current career. Even then, he'll never reach an advanced career without completing a basic career.

Also remember that the characteristic advances aren't cumulative (the +10 int of scribe and +15 int of apprentice wizard don't total +25 int). It seems like it would be a huge waste of XP to try and do what's he's doing.

In reply to flakk (msg #220):

hmm, this doesn't booed well for us. ;)

I did this once, i went from a thief to a mercenary. Its up to the GM's discretion, say for exmple, you have to go to something fitting so you COULD have a scribe becoming a wizards apprentice as it is a natural step and then to a mercenary as long as he had a reason. GOing back however would be difficult, if he did it would require penalties and punishments such as if he moved back he would be cursed by the wizard and must remain his apprentice untill he deems it suitable to be released from his service e.c.t meaning they couldnt change classes again untill the wizard died or he did somethin g spectacular for the wizard where he would reward him with the freedom to choose his own class and stay there!

In reply to overkill (msg #224):

Remember, you don't need to buy Talents/Skills to 'complete' a Career.

Just the Characteristic Advances. So, if you could go back, you can burn through two-three Careers to get to the higher level Characteristic Advances. Then go back and pick up the other stuff.

You don't? Perhaps we are reading the Skill and Talent Options section (under Your Second Career) very differently. Where it says something like "you don't have to buy these skills and talents to finish the career" I've always interpreted that as meaning you don't have to buy both options when you're presented with an xxx or yyy choice.

That's how our GM runs it.  You need all Characteristic Advances and skills/Talents to Advance.  But if your 2nd Career has say Dodge Blow, and you already have it.  You don't need it to finish that career, but you can take it, to get a +10.

In reply to Kilgs.  Only in your first career can you advance without buying skills and talents - coz you already get them!


Under "Your First Career" you are told you must spend your XP to buy all the advances of your career.  These are only advances to your characteristics as you will already have been given the skills and talents for free.  EXCEPT for those listed as an 'OR' which you 'can' buy if you so wish.

Under "Changing Careers" you are told to pay 100xp to change to a career which is listed as an exit to your previous career.  Alternatively you may pay 200xp to move to any other 'Basic Career' (see under 'Basic Considerations' although many GMs would require some role-playing to justify such a move.  This alternative move may happen without finishing the previous career (see sidebar on P29)

As to your second and subsequent careers you must buy not only any extra characteristic advances but also all the skills and talents before moving on.  OK you could pay 200 and only move to another basic career but doing this all the time you could never move to an advanced career.  This you can only do by completing a career and taking an official 'exit' from that career.

LOL.  Just looking for some ideas.

What to throw at PC's? What about a band of Orcs with a couple of careers under their skin? It is one thing to bash up some hapless Orc.

But Sneakoid Throat slitter, the assassin Orc?
Or Sir Bash'alot with his looted Fullplate and Warhorse?

Now those are a different challenge whatsoever. :D

Went back and read it again and... it's confusing. I definitely see where you are pointing to. In addition, there are a couple other references saying you have to take all available specifically...


So it seems like they're treating skills/talents as required advances. But the problem is they're never referred to as that. The Advance Scheme is characteristics only. And "finishing the Advance scheme" is considered pivotal to changing careers...



Maybe I'm pulling in my memory of 1st edition rules or something? I'm definitely swayed to your way of thinking but it's going against my brain. Grrr...

Well, five out of five people on RPG.net agree. Guess that solves my problem :-) Thanks!

I'm afraid I don't see where it is confusing.

Under "Your Second Career"

"When you enter your second career you do not automatically gain all the listed skills and talents as you did in your Starting Career.  In fact from now on you MUST (my capitals) pay for ALL the listed skills and talents AS WELL AS finishing your Advance Scheme.

When you have a choice of two skills or talents you MUST buy one.  If you already have a listed skill or talent you don't need to buy it again.  These rules apply for every career beyond your Starting Career."

And so although Skills and Talents are not called "required advances" they are "in addition to" your advances, and MUST be taken.

Also I don't see why anyone would want to forego the skills and talents.  In every game that I have played - and that is many - most people aim to buy skills and talents well before they finish their advance scheme.

Don't get me wrong.  If you and your group want to play your own version that is your prerogative but you leave yourself open to lots of nit-picking about rules - official or otherwise.

But in actual game play if you don't have the skills/talents you need then almost no amount of characteristic advances will save you.  Don 't forget that if you do not have a basic skill e.g. Haggle or Concealment then you test at half your skill level!  And if you want to test an advanced skill e.g. Dodge Blow or Pick Locks, you cannot do this at all if you do not have the skill!

If a career has talent A or talent B in the advance scheme you must take at least on of them to finish the career abd you can choose to take the second one if you have the xp to buy it.

All you need to do to finish a starting career is to buy the stat upgrades, however before leaving the career you could chose to buy the additional talents or skills that you did not get because they were listed as 'or' or 'any 2 of' options in the scheme

My group is nearly finished "Terror in Talabheim".  Most PCs are in their second careers or very close.  Any suggestions for a follow up adventure?

... Cabin boys on Long Drong's fearsome buccaneer raider, the Rum Runner?

... Going to be emissaries to Brentonia when they are geased by some dark knights with good landscaping sensibilities?

... Find a small enclave of Beastmen in 50 furlongs of distant woods, ruled by one portly member in an never ending search for his personal ambrosia from the forest?
This message was last edited by the player at 03:56, Tue 04 May 2010.

Strike-To-Stun just published their Top 4 entries for Scenarios-2009. You could take a look over there...

Or the classic Something Rotten in Kislev. I am sure that Talabheim has his own fancy knight order where those who know to much can be send on their merry way. Safely away where their dirty secrets can do no harm.

You could adapt the Lure of the Lich Lord to fit in Talabecland.

- Make Lich a Barrow king.
- Place in the Barren hills rather that Nekhara.
- Inverted Pyramid.
- Swap the Egyptian feel for a stone age feel.

I must admit surprise at hearing someone suggest that.  I've never actually run it myself, but I hear nothing but bad press about it...

Kislev isn't terrible. It's just not up to the standard of the previous installments of The Enemy Within. That being said, Flakk you're in my Enemy Within game so if you decide to read Something Rotten in Kislev know that it will have some spoilers.

The best part of Rotten is the introduction as you are rewarded to become a Templar Knight so you can get promoted safely away. Nice touch that one. I also liked the "That zombie? He is my grand da, never worked harder when he was alive. Very useful them zombies and no feeding either" The subtle differences of outlook from Kislev and the Empire was interesting.

No worries there.  I am much too lazy to use anything that would require work=:)

Hmmmm....I don't have the Lich King (excellent conversion idea by the way) but took a little bit and started flipping through "Ashes of Middenheim".  It looks descent.  Has anyone ran it or played in it?

In reply to flakk (msg #246):

Ran it a several times. Even running it on rpol right now.

Cool.  Do you like it so far?

Played it as well, it was quite a nice adventure. A good introduction to the wondrous Old World. Though, I never finished the complete series as I really didn't like the last adventure.

But aom imo, is the best of the series.

Awesome.  I have the first two books thanks to the FFG clearance sale.  Looking like this might be the next installment...

I agree with Gwenlynn, it's alot of pressure on the GM to make the atmopshere of the place in SoA and FoN.

Okay so I don't own any of the WFRP book's yet but I'm hankering for a good bit of mayhem. Dose the system allow for odd character types? Say I wanted to play a Dark Elf Corsair or a 'reformed' Norse Marauder would that be possible? If not in a traditional game then how about as mercenary, Dog's of War or summit like that?

Hey, WFRPers

I'm in a similar boat to Jakara, though I have the 1st ed. main book, I have never even seen 2nd ed. (let alone the newer one) and at £50 for USED copy (£70 new!) I probably never will...  I think DH at £25 may be my recourse or wait for Deathwatch.

That said, if there is a 1st ed. game started, I'd love to get involved.

Happy gaming y'all.

A dark elf Corsair would probably require the campaign or scenario to be based from a dark elf POV, but a reformed Norse Maraunder can easily be fitted it, traveling either by sea or from Kislev.

Alot of what the PC's end up doing is usually either Mercenary or investigatory work, so you should be fine for a 'dogs o' war' scene of things :)

Yeah, Dark Elf is tough since the second edition hews to WFB tropes in that there are no "reformed" dark elves. But Norse Marauders are covered in great detail in Realms of Chaos. I believe there are Raiders, Slavers, Marauders and so on as available career choices.

Heck, they got rules for playing Skaven!

We played a game as a bunch of Skaven doing a job for a Skaven shaman.  It was great fun.

Blrg. Wonder if I can find so well written house rules for playing as a Dark Elf. Bunch of nut jobs sailing up and down the Bretton shore, raiding and pillaging to their hearts content. Murder, betrayal, mayhem, lies within lies...

*Stalks off*

I'm reading Elfslayer right now and would recommend it for a good view of Dark Elves and their evil shenanigans.

I know that if your current advance scheme says +10 WS and your next says +15 that you will only get an additional %5, but what about the secondary stats? if you have three careers that have all had +1 to attacks, will you have 4 attacks?

The secondaries work the same as well.  So if you had a +1 attack from one career you'd get 2 attacks and need to find one with +2 to get a third (same the magic and wounds).

Maximum is +4 and found in the Daemonslayer career (if you can call it a career, more like a sentence) if I'm not mistaken.

I'm watching a show about Paris and they are talking about ragpickers (past and present)....not scavengers, recyclers etc, but ragpickers=:)

Actually, you are mistaken ;-). Even the mighty Daemonslayer only has +2A.
Three attacks in total is the maximum you can get... unless there something in various other books, you know Bretonia etc.
Three attacks is critical, since you only ever can thwart two (1 parry, 1 dodge), unless you spend a fortune point that is

In reply to Tullyandy (msg #261):

maximum is the top level chaos champion.

Only +2? Tres bizarre.

This site has an excellent Warhammer Calendar with weather, moon phases and so on. It also has some nice 3rd edition stuff.

http://www.gmtools.excelocms.com/calendar.html

That's sweet!  Thanks for the link.

Afraid not sir. Exalted Champion (of Chaos that is), found in Tome of Corruption, gets +3 attacks. Of course becoming one is usually beyond the scope of most campaigns.

Pessimist ;-)

Well I did run a Chaos campaign back in college, it was loads of fun seeing my players mutate people and murder whole families for fun.

The unofficial Tilea sourcebook is now available! Check at the Liber Fanatica website or read more about it here.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=546664

Excellent!

I think we're missing a Career... in Tome of Corruption (p77), under the Exits from a Cult Acolyte of Tzeentch is a Career titled "Thrall Wizard." I can't find it in the Career Compendium, Tome of Corruption, Skaven book or Realms of Sorcery.

Any ideas or was it just not edited out?

Hmmmm...not sure about the Thrall either.

Does anyone know what the "rain of blows" talent does?

Thrall shows up as the first career for Vampire but that doesn't work.

"Rain of Blows" shows up in Ashes of Middenheim. But the errata indicates the following...

This message was last edited by the player at 02:59, Tue 16 Nov 2010.

One of the end baddies has "rain of blows as well"...ignore it I guess?  I'll just have to sub in something nasty=:)

Grrr... I should know by now to keep reading.

Many thanks!

Career Exits
The option of allowing you to take an Exit from a previous Career... does that cost 100xp or 200xp? For example, I am an Apprentice Wizard, switch to Scholar when complete, but when I finish Scholar I go to Journeyman Wizard instead of the Scholar exits.

100xp or 200xp?

I think it is 100xp if you finish a career and go back to a an exit of a previous one.

The 200xp is only charged when switiching to a basic career not in yor progression or ending a career early (to take a new basic career).

I agree.

Second Question, do we charge the 200xp to interrupt a Career and head back to an Advanced Exit or is just not allowed?

In the above example, I jump into Scholar for a few advances and then decide to head out for Journeyman Wizard... 200xp or finish Scholar and spend 100xp?

I dont think that is allowed without a house rule.

I will have to check my rule book when I get home to answer that on properly however.

It's not in there unfortunately. I'm of the mind that you need to complete a Career to utilize a legitimate Exit. Otherwise, I pop into Mercenary and boost WS and then jump back to Journeyman Wizard for peanuts.

You would have to finish the merc career which has quite a few advances to take if you are from an apprentice wizard background and a good reason to give your GM beyond I want to get back to being a wizard by becoming a soldier.

I think that you should be able to abandon a career and move to another career that you were allowed to take from your last career. So if you could choose between Merc and Scholar then yes you could first go Merc, then abandon that career and turn Scholar.

However, I would want some RP reasoning behind it.

I've decided to go with the Book rule. You can drop out of a Career at any time to enter a Basic Career. But you must actually finish to use an Exit into an Advanced Career, no matter when you gained access to the Exit.

Nice, pre-painted miniatures on-sale from FFG.

They're Rackham's Confrontation series. Here is a link to some excellent knights, templars and witchhunters!

http://store.fantasyflightgame...ucts.cfm?FullCat=138

Cheap, cheap!

Not to mention a set of majorly bad-ass werewolves in there.

...

I don't care if there's no rules for werewolves specifically in Warhammer, they got to fit into Sylvannia SOMEWHERE!!!!! It's Überwäld for crying out loud!

http://store.fantasyflightgame...etails.cfm?SKU=COS10

Looks like they've also got tyranids. Wha?

I do like the look of the demon hunters though. It's hard to find cool witch hunter models.

I've never liked that... werewolves are my favorite. The Sons of Ulric are just lame compared to a full-on loup garou running through the woods.

In reply to Kilgs (msg #290):

Most things are tame compared to the Garou ;)

I seem to recall that there are rules about werewolves in the book detailing the North.

Could be, I got that and two other books at the same time so I haven't read through them carefully.

There is a side box on pg 146 of the Tome of Corruption that gives some information on Ulfwerenar and there's a Were mutation. Also there is a bloodline ability for vampires to change into wolves but that's a slightly different thing.

A question of my own.

What would be an appropriate title for the head/patriarch of an elf household? Sort of like an Elrond figure. I don't want to use lord and was thinking about master, it's for a group of "Asthoi" (fan name for the elves that were left behind but aren't woodelves e.g the Elf Ranger from WHQ, not really referenced anymore).

"Insert" of the House of Lecai. Any suggestions?

The Old World Bestiary has a small entry on were creatures.

And, what does the army books say? There's usually stories with these title cropping up in them.

In reply to Furry Teddy (msg #294):

Found a little english-elvish translator here: http://www.angelfire.com/empir...ora5/Translator.html

I think it's based on Tolkeinian elves, but might work okay.

Some quick ones I tried:

Lord = Heru
King = Aran
Prince = Taren
Mighty Blood Thirsty Warrior of the Dark and Shadowy Forest = Beleg Agar Anfaug Ohtar En'i'mori Ar'dae Taure

Where do I find the dooming chart?

Tome of Salvation I believe. Page 151.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:26, Thu 23 Dec 2010.

Thank you

Where the frack is mounted combat?=:)

Bretonnian sourcebook?

One of the only books I do not have=:(

Gimme an hour to walk home (damn car crash!), and I'll see what I can do.

I skimmed the bret book and didn't see it, I found vehicle combat in the old world armory...

armory also has jousting

Yah I am not really looking for jousting rules but actual mounted combat.  Does anyone have anything homebrewed as it is looking like an overlooked area.  The only books I do not have are the Bret book, Ice Queen, Boarder Princes, a few of the adventures and the last book put out with all the cults and sects in it.  Oh and the Tome of Salvation.

I was thinking that only trained warhorses could fight.  Any horse hit in combat would require the rider to make a ride check to keep it under control (bonus for warhorses or penalty for non-warhorses?  Animal training check instead?).  Initiative use the rider's.  Simple stuff like that and would welcome any and all feedback and suggestions.  Damn knight in my game=:)

This is what we did in our TT game. Didn't come up too often, so not a ton of playtesting done, but might give you something to work off of.

Mounted Combat:

Mounted Combat Goal: to make mounted combat plausible in WHFRP so to have the ability to have mounted opponents and resolve mounted combat without too much fiddling. Also trying to resolve the issue of single mounted units and lance charges.


Untrained mounts: to make the big differentiation between war trained mounts and non trained mounts you need to take a half action to make a ride test to keep control of an untrained mount during a battle. Now that ~50 GP you spend on a warhorse means something.


Rider uses the mount's movement for movement purposes.


Rider suffers -10% WS unless fighting in a group of 3 or more riders.

What this means is that a Horseman with a warhorse against a single unmounted foe is at a net +0% to hit them (-10% single horseman, +10% outnumbering opponent 2-1)

Shooting a bow off a moving horse suffers a -20% BS unless the Rider has the Mounted Archery Talent


Any person on foot with a polearm or spear can set to receive a charge as a half action

This gives the foot person an automatic free attack against any charging foe at +10% and +1 damage. With a long polearm like a pike a group of 4 or more people receive a +20% to hit and +2 to damage.

If mount is a trained war animal they may make their attacks on the rider's initiative.

Trampling: If you want your mount to step on something instead of you having to deal with it you can make a ride test while moving through the target square/s. Each subsequent target after the first provides a -10% to one's ride check. Targets suffer a hit of your mount's SB+1.

When attacking a mount the attacker may choose to attack the mount. If the attack does any damage the rider must make a ride test to stay on the mount. On a war trained mount the check is done with a +20%, on a riding mount the check is made at -20%

Targeting the mount is at -10% to your WS. This is mostly just so that its a bit harder to kill said mount as in higher XP games its fairly noticeable that the mount is less tough than the rider.
The mount is given a chance to dodge all attacks. (?)
Falling off a horse sucks. Falling off a charging horse really sucks. Rider suffers a S 5 hit, only toughness applies, for falling off a moving horse, and an S 7 hit, only toughness applies off a charging horse. Falling is less bad on a shorter or slower mounts like a wolf or pony. (move -1?)


Charging


Demilances and lances are only really useful on charges, which may require a change in one of the Grail Knight abilities. Outside of the charge they have the same stats as a spear but with the Slow ability instead of being Fast. Also halving of their prices mostly because they are semi-disposable weapons. 30% of being destroyed on a charge.
Spears can also be used on a charge and gain a +1 SB damage bonus but lose the Fast ability. Spears suffer a 40% chance of being destroyed and a 40% chance of being torn out of the wielder's hands.
Regular weapons lose the +10% to hit and gain +1 damage instead.

Light Warhorse: increase Ag to 40


Heavy Warhorse: increase S and T to 50, lower move to 7

I like!  Yonk!  Many thanks!!!!

I don't see why a single rider should have a penalty to hit an opponent on the ground. I think that the benefit of sitting on a horse means that you have the height advantage. Which should give a bonus not a penalty.

I don't see you haven't alot of room to swing your sword on the back of a horse...that would explain the -10.

I don't want to get into a big discussion about these, as they haven't been in use for some time (I just saw the question and pulled them off of my HD), but this was our thinking (as I recall):

The penalty is only for riders out of formation, (in-game) due to the limited mobility of someone on horseback. Sure they're higher up, but they can't dodge about as much and have to be mindful of not stabbing the horse when they're fighting.

That said, none of us are trained cavalry officers so that's just some bs rationalization. The meta purpose for the rule was to prevent what we've experienced frequently in RPGs which is the automatic cavalry>infantry which (besides seeming untrue from history) would have changed the way WFRP felt, and we didn't want that.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:11, Fri 24 Dec 2010.

Well in WFB, those on horseback do have huge advances. For one thing they are harder to wound. Other gaming systems grand bonuses to those riding horses. Another thing is that the system does not give them a penalty to hit. In fact they get an extra attack from their nasty horses (who in battle proved the to be often more devastating then their rider)

The cavalry of today that I know of are policemen on horses. Just a few of those can scatter a group of rioters. They really are a force multiplier.

I personally would not give those on horseback a -10 to WS. Especially not if the mount was combat trained.

Of course. Your game, your rules. It all depends on how you want the game to run, and what will make the game the most fun. I just posted because I had them ready when flakk asked.

I'll have to take a closer look at the house rules. I agree entirely with the concept of Mounted>Infantry, which I think is clearly played out in history except where they were foolish to charge pike lines. Granted, this is going to start changing since gunpowder exists but it's still there. Heck, Cortez led cavalry against the Aztecs even though he had cannons and arquebi (is that the plural ;-)

I would definitely grant bonuses to Mounted Opponents provided they have the right weapons. Lances, horse hammers, long/broad swords... all of them allow extended reach. The mounted combatant has a height advantage which allows a stronger swing and is harder to deflect. A mounted combatant is harder to hit in vital areas. Not to mention flailing steel-shod hooves...

Thanks for pointing it out. I never checked the mounted rules since my TT group is so damn poor... ;-)

A scene that has always stuck with me is from Braveheart. In the scene Wallace is facing a charge from single horsemen with his Claymore, a quick duck and a low swing took the horses legs out, and sent the rider tumbling. Yes a few mounted police send people running, but these people are unarmed, and also flee when the police break out their weaponry(Ie. non-lethals like beanbags and tear-gas). If this group had swords, or spears, I feel it would go completely in the opposite direction.
Further more, Historically yes Calvary has been hugely effective in large scale warfare, were the infantry was shoulder to shoulder, no one there could dodge, all they could do was except the charge.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:56, Thu 30 Dec 2010.

Well, mr Bravehart first had to successfully dodge the cavalry mans attack....
Once you have done that, you can retaliate. But would it have been so much different when he was charged by an infantryman? Same principle, dodge then strike.

It is much easier for a human to make a sharp 40 degree turn at full speed than a horse. They don't pivot well.

A horse can easily run fast enough so that the poor matey on the ground can't manage to attack them after dodging the blow, though.

Then again, doing something in a movie and doing something in real life are very different things. Unless I'm mistaken, large formations of pike-armed infantry and increasingly effective firearms were what ended the heavy cavalry's dominance on the battlefield (they were still around, mind you), not people stepping out of the way.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:59, Thu 30 Dec 2010.

This point was made, yes...in shoulder to shoulder formation, calvary will win every time, unless the infantry have sharp pointy sticks or guns, but one on one, i'm not so sure.

But if victory could be acheived by simply splitting up, why wouldn't people have done that to begin with? Consider the cost of training and arming one knight, compared to an unmounted soldier, the difference must've been colossal. If even one in ten unmounted warriors could beat a knight on their own, wouldn't it have made heavy cavalry pointless?

I'll summarize for those that don't like reading.


Heavy Cav: Two techniques, go in flank to flank, or charge loose and then form up flank to flank. It says in there "but always in formations of several knights, not individually."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...cavalry_using_lances


Light Cav:  Straight up says"If they were forced to fight in close combat against better armoured enemies, they usually lost."




http://en.wikipedia.org wiki/Cavalry_tactics#Tactics_of_light_and_medium_cavalry_using_bows

Indeed, I agree that cavalry ought to be the most effective when used in tight formations(as indeed most units are), but I find nothing in the link that suggests a single unmounted warrior would have any kind of advantage when facing a mounted opponent. In fact, it states that infantry had to be in tight formations to be a threat to cavalry, and that knights often tried to get the infantry to scatter so they could chop them to pieces.

Could you copy and paste the part about trying to scatter them. The only thing I can see is where it says, "The lance as primary weapon pierced the enemy. If an enemy soldier was hit in full gallop by a knight's lance embedded under the armpit, he was thrown backwards with such a momentum that he knocked over several of his compatriots. " Which isn't scattering them, it's just knocking them down.

I also disagree to where you said "In fact, it states that infantry had to be in tight formations to be a threat to cavalry" What I read says that tight infantry and polearms made fighting on horseback almost obsolete "Modern historians agree that the major portion of knights during many Medieval battles fought on foot.[citation needed] Only with ideal conditions of terrain and support via long range combatants would attacks be carried out on horseback. If the enemy infantry was equipped with polearms and fought in tight formations it was not possible to charge without heavy losses."

Again, my argument is that when you look at maneuverability of a man standing and that of a horse soldier, I think the man has it better.

P.S. I hope this "Debate" isn't upsetting anyone. I mean no ill intent in my arguing. I do find this type of banter extremely entertaining, and if I upset someone I am truly sorry. That being said, ya'll are wrong. :p

Ah, I should have made it clear which parts of the text I referred to. I'll try to clarify my argument:

"If the enemy infantry was equipped with polearms and fought in tight formations it was not possible to charge without heavy losses."

Here it states that infantry was dangerous when they were tightly packed, not spread out and maneuverable.

"Another possibility was to bluff an attack, but turn around before impact. This tempted many infantrymen to go on chase, leaving their formation. The heavy cavalry then turned around again in this new situation and rode down the scattered infantry. Such a tactic was deployed in the battle of Hastings (1066)."

It seems to me that the entire article contradicts that infantry would be at an advantage due to mobility(actually it's the other way around.). I agree that there are advantages and disadvantages to a mounted assault (only a fool would send his expensive knights charging uphill through a thick forest for example), but nothing suggests that an unmounted warrior would have an advantage over one who is mounted due to mobility, unless fighting in difficult terrain.

Everything I've read, including the article you referenced, suggests that cavalry must be fought with tight, disciplined formations of well-armed infantry(or shot to bits before they reach you), so they lose the speed and momentum of their charge and can be overwhelmed by a foe with greater numbers.

P.S. Right back at ya! ;)
This message was last edited by the player at 00:34, Fri 31 Dec 2010.

The bluff in order to scatter them then attack was done by a formation of horsemen, against a then, small group of unformed infantry.


I specifically said maneuverability, not mobility. Yes, they can cover much more ground, but they don't turn well. thats why I think a single person will have the advantage on a single rider.  I see the fight going one of two ways, A) the rider keeps doing charge attacks, which one on one aren't hard to dodge, because horses don't turn quickly, or to clarify as quickly as a man can. or B)the horse rider tries to stand and fight, where the infantryman has a huge target(being the horse.) and the Rider loses a key to fighting, use of his hips.


I've included a video as an example of the maneuverability of a rider.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...&feature=related


Also, look at bullfighting.
This message was last edited by the player at 02:06, Fri 31 Dec 2010.

I dunno. The invention of the stirrup is often credited as the biggest contributing factor to the development of the feudal system. When your entire social order is formed around the importance of the heavy cavalryman (and the church...but that's another topic) I think that says something. Remember, the stirrup allowed men to use their legs and hips much more when fighting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirrup

Regarding densely packed infantry being a weakness: I'm pretty sure that lightly packed skirmishers were a favorite target for cavalry. There must be something to that.

Breaking it down to one on one: A man equipped with a lance will frequently have a reach advantage. If you can reach him or his horse he should probably be able to reach you. Wallace's claymore might be an exception.

Regarding armour: Contrary to what you see in the movies armour helps. A LOT! You're unlikely to stop a barded horse (even with just mail) with any sort of cutting stroke delivered from the side. A really powerful blow might still injure it but would that be the kind of blow you can deliver off of a quick dodge? Maybe, but I'd bet it would be harder. Even in Braveheart you see Wallace delivering a draw cut to the horse if I'm remembering the scene correctly (though I think the horse was unbarded so it's a moot point).

In summary, I wouldn't say that it would be an impossible strategy but I think the odds are heavily in favor of the cavalryman.

Oh, and I invite further debate. I love discussing military history.

I've been waiting for you to chime in :).

Stirups... I don't ride and I admit hadn't given them much thought, but your ride, my only slight counter is that from the standing position you have even less control of the horse.


One on one would you use a lance in that situation? I was picturing sword V sword


Armor, I wouldn't expect a hit on every dodge or a kill in on hit, but knicks and cuts take their toll.


But the overall question is? Do you agree with the proposed rules in message 307?

I was going to get into a discussion about cavalry, but everything has already been said.

Changes... seem okay, but probably need playtesting.

Stupid question, I heard a rumour that there were books giving rules to use WFRP3rd without the special dice and playcards.  Is this truth or just a rumour?

I think it's true. I don't stay up on 3rd edition but I think it was in the recently released Players Guide/Handbook? There has been some discussion of it on RPG.net and people are referring to it as "WFRP3 Lite." So there must be some truth to it.

In reply to dlantoub (msg #329):

There is no rumor, here is the proof:

http://fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=1835

Amusing email banter between my players, a Dwarf Troll-Slayer, and the Elf. The Elf doesn't think he's trying to die hard enough...

What a polite dwarf.

Aye, I'd have just smacked the Elf instead :P

FYI- I have overkill in a game and I noticed that s/he's game has also noted his absence. Considering that s/he has been diehard for some time I think overkill may have run into some problems. Here's hoping that s/he is okay!

He left my game a month or two ago. He became a father (more fool him).