So, Cyberpunk, Pokemon/Digimon, Vampire, Werewolf and other overly specific genres were only added because multiple options were NOT available on RPOL previously but now that multiple options ARE available, there's no point in adding more? I suppose that makes sense, but given that logic, REMOVING Cyberpunk, Pokemon/Digimon, Vampire, Werewolf and the like would make more sense now that people CAN use Contemporary+Scifi for Cyberpunk, Anime+Scifi for Pokemon/Digimon and Horror for Vampire/Werewolf. But that would put those fans in the same boat as the Steampunk fans.

If nothing else, wouldn't popular demand on RPOL warrant a change? Or would these changes simply be too difficult to make? I'd understand if non-steampunkers thought they'd be pointless and that we whiny RPOLers should just be happy with what we have. That would make sense, I suppose. I'm sure there's a lot of work involved in changes to the system and we shouldn't take it so lightly. But we do appreciate all the work you guys do for this place. RPOL is a complex web of awesomeness.

Why are those categories still around? Is a db replace of "werewolf" with "contemporary, horror, fantasy" complicated? (Asking quite seriously: early DB design decisions often haunt us for years afterward, I know.)

I mean, I'd personally prefer a massive proliferation of genre names, myself, because even the non-specific RPOL's taxonomy is incomplete (comedy and horror, but no drama; historical and contemporary, but no prehistoric or future; fantasy, superhero, and sci-fi, but no weird fiction, alternate history, or similar-sized sub-groups of speculative fiction; and so on). And I'm of the opinion that tagging is a better way to manage something as divisive and taxonomically intractable issue as "genre."

But if you're going to make some players wade through the haystack to find what they're actually looking for, it looks biased and unfriendly to the players if other people get to have and eat a cake instead.

Removing genres would inconvenience the people who currently use them (ie: their games would be relabelled, and they'd then have to decide if they are happy with the new default, or if they want to change it to something else, plus it makes it harder for people returning to the site to find games if the category the game was in isn't there any more) far more than not adding a genre inconveniences those who already have a means to label their game.


Only jase can decide whether any change is made to the site or not.  Popular opinion (rather than "demand") might influence his decision, but at the end of the day it is always his decision.
This message was last edited by the user at 16:46, Sun 26 May 2013.

Good point, Seasong. That may explain why steampunkers have been pretty insistent on getting a genre. I'd feel the same way if someone omitted scifi from the list and only had fantasy.

But Bigbadron is right, ultimately it's up to Jase to make any changes that he may or may not see fit, regardless of what the rest of us on RPOL want. He is the one who has to put forth the effort and work to get it done after all. C'est la vie.

You mean jase, not Jase.  : )
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To get back on topic...  My argument for adding the genre is the simple fact that is has been asked for so many times:

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It's even gotten to the point of being mocked:
If anyone is curious though... here is what jase has said on the matter:
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Short and simple.  I understand that it is NOT going to get added (even though it would make a lot of people happy).  I would however highly recommend that the older genres that predate the three choice system be depreciated and eventually removed.  They should be left in the search function with an astrick noting they are no longer in use.  New games shouldn't be allowed to choose those catagories.  With time, there would no longer be any games using them and they could finally be removed completely.

No matter what happens, I do want to thank the moderators.  This topic has come up at least 8 times that I can find, and in each case they still allow us to make our case and try to convence them.  Not once have they locked the thread and just said "No".

Wow !  Thanks for that, ninthbit - I think I'll bookmark this post so I can refer people back to it next time the question is asked !  Ah, no I won't, but I WILL grab all those links and keep adding to them.

And if dedication and persistence were the criteria, I'm sure Steampunk would have been voted in by your efforts alone. ;>

Hey, I want Forgotten Realms as a genre and that doesn't even qualify as even a sub-genre and is NEVER going to happen ! It would save me some typing, though. <grins>

9 active Pokemon/Digemon games at time of writing (two of which use Pathfinder as a Game System !) ... so yes, could be depreciated and eventually removed OR a database fix put through to remap them to whatever is considered appropriate ... but personally I'd rather keep jase working on whatever next wonderful thing is coming rather than that as their existence doesn't inconvenience me at all.

Conceding that it won't get added, perhaps under the Create A Game section of the FAQ we could clarify the genre section:

/help/content.cgi?t=faqs&page=createagame


Or in the GM section under "There isn't a Genre that fits my game.  What should I do?"

/help/content.cgi?t=faqs&page=gmsfaq

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Yes, I'm biased towards Steampunk as an example.  But on the same token, it does make a GREAT example of why the three choice system came about.

"That's the way it's always been" isn't much of an argument as to why it should be going forward, so I'd take something I said four years ago with a pinch of salt.

Requests for an addition to the genres mostly arise when a GM realise one they want for their game is missing.  Understandable, but not a sound reason to add a genre.

Genres have stayed pretty much as they are for seven or so years, so maybe it is time to revise them.  Then again, maybe they're not broken so there is no need to fix them.

I'm happy to revise and expand the genre listing, but I think it needs to be approached holistically, not just adding favourite-genre-x.  A discussion best done in RPoL Development.

I don't think anyone would say the current system is "broken."  Steamheads can find the games they are looking for.  Its more a simple matter of legacy information causing confusion/misinterpretation about how the genres are intended to work.

The inclusion of the older genre entries that predate the generic three choices system leads others to think their favorite genre should be listed as well.  As much as I would love to have Steampunk added, I do honestly think the "correct" answer to all of this is in depreciating/removing the older overly specific listings.

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Also, we may want someone to update the FAQ if RPoL Development is where these requests should go.  :)

GM's FAQ -> There isn't a Genre that fits my game.  What should I do?

+1 Steampunk

Or at least add "Victorian" as a an option as it is more functional that historic, fantasy, scifi.

Historic is often swords + sandals/chainmail etc.

Fantasy may or may not be part of the Steampunk. Some Steampunk has fantasy monsters others are more Sherlock Holmes without the magic elements.

Scifi implies future, not retro, technology. Steampunk is an alternate retro technology. Futuristic for the time period often below par of our modern age. For example steam clanking gear bots that are unwielding compared to modern day agile automotive assembly robots.


Victorian and Steampunk has grown as genre over the years to have their fandom base, with their own cons, with their own social groups.

For example:
http://www.thesteampunkempire....ontosteampunksociety

Years ago Steampunk was a rarity. Now there are serveral games that encompass it and many more freeforms running it.

I know there are also Steampunk novel writers that are part of RPOL now.

Thats why it ought to be category and why it keeps getting asked for. Its grown hugely in recent years.

I find this discussion both enlightening and annoying, and I swore I wasn't going to take part, but I think I have to here - "historic" is exactly what it sounds like: "historic." Saying "historic is often X" shows personal opinion, but doesn't really mean much besides that. I don't really have a problem with breaking down into more specific areas, but, well, why? It'd be okay to have pre-historic, historic, futuristic, but trying to divide genres into "Victorian," etc, will inevitably end up making people unhappy. After all, do you include both Medieval and Dark Ages (they're different historical periods, after all)? Is there sufficient difference between Roman Classical and Greek Classical? Do we really need either one?

Anyway, your argument would be the same as saying, "There should be a Pathfinder genre 'cause it's gotten popular over the years." Does that mean when something loses popularity we should also remove the genre? Nah.

KISS works.

Big Brother, you are mistaken. Pathfinder is a game system lacking the various Steampunk elements I've sited.

My argument is: Steampunk is recognized many places as a distinct genre just not here. Please fix this with adding one line of data to existing code.

The point of the search engine is to connect players to games. I don't think a new person coming to RPOL for Steampunk is going to think of it as "fantasy" nor "sci fi". Though some of the moderator staff do look at it like that its not the core of the Victorian genre.

KISS = Keep it simple -----  : Its simpler to have "Steampunk" not the complicated "Fantasy + Sci Fi + historic" of the counter arguement.

Yes KISS = Steampunk +1
This message was last edited by the user at 21:10, Tue 28 May 2013.

Yes, but are those authoritative places as opposed to places where it's not terribly surprising that the sub-genre is considered to be (with or without good reason) a genre in itself.



And this prevents me from demanding splatter-punk, alternative history, urban horror, gothic horror, scientific romance, apocalyptic Robinsonade, ad infinitum as "genres-in-themselves" how?

All you're asking for is special treatment for a topic that not everyone in power here thinks deserves special treatment.  If you do get it, why can't I have my way with all those examples I gave (aside from the say of those in power)?



You seriously believe that newcomers to the site are that stupid?  That they can't imagine steam-punk as being at all related to the genre of sci-fi?



Yes, simpler if all this was about was just the word "steampunk" except it's also about the other people who use this site.  Like jase wrote: this has to be done holistically, not piecemeal to satisfy one individual or group when every other individual or group has at least as good a claim to wanting this or that genre listed after that particular barn-door was closed seven years ago.

(You want even more simple?  I just typed in "steam" to the search-engine and got three hits.  Do you think your average user here looking for steampunk won't think of that?)

From the sounds of things in post #14, it looks like you might get your way after all as the genre-listing gets cleaned up.

How do you define authoritative?  Is WoTC the authoritive source on d20... Piazo would likely disagree.

I would think the authority would be those people that are involved in the genre.  Nobody doubts the etymology of the word, but steampunk doesn't imply punk anymore.  Its not an overly specific subgenre anymore.  Its a full general genre that really just implies alternate tech that focuses on steam.  Other than that, it has several of its own subgenres from magical fantasy (Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms, to traditional Sherlock Holmes type Victorian.

Excellent question; however, I doubt the answer is "anybody who says they are".

For something like steam-punk, I'd tend to go to the academics who've cut their teeth on science-fiction and/or genre classification.

DCV please get into the topic of what makes a genre, like the breadth of involvment.

Pathfinder is a game system. (and I suspect searchable under game systems) Pathfinder lacks the non-game support that the genre of Steampunk does.

Speaking of authorities on genre someone passed this on to me:

http://oxforddictionaries.com/...an_english/steampunk
a genre of science fiction that typically features steam-powered machinery rather than advanced technology.


You know Oxford? The widely accepted keepers of the English language who accept Steampunk as a genre.

Steampunk...
= Is widely recognized outside of RPOL and in fact widely accepted outside of roleplaying games
= societies of real life humans currently gather as Steampunk members (see the above link for one of many such groups)
= Its in the dictionary
= Its part of many games that reference it (Castle Falkenstein, Space 1889, For Faerie Queen and Country, Red Sands and so on and so forth)
= Its acknowledged in bookstores like Chapters... 200+ matches
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/...ampunk&suggest=1

Ya know.. when you start having things like this:
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/...qyurcCFYOZ5wodSycAAA

You've earned a place as a genre.


It is simpler and clearer for both current and new users to keep up with the rest of world by including Steampunk vs "fantasy + historic + sci-fi".

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I will also quote DCV



Well.. yes at least you agree its a genre. Just seems you want it witheld from being in RPOL's genre list.
This message was last edited by the user at 03:52, Wed 29 May 2013.

The question isn't whether Steampunk is a recognized genre. The question is whether jase wants to add it to the genre list on Rpol.

The answer, apparently, is no, at least not at this time.

Nothing to see here, folks, move along. Right?

Yes, a genre OF science fiction ie a sub-genre.

(I'm not the one who brought up Pathfinder, so I'm not going to address that point.)

Basically, your argument above is that a genre is constituted when some large number of people decide it is.  While that's something to take into consideration, that in itself isn't good enough.  As I've written elsewhere, Star Trek might as well be considered a genre in itself if one follows this logic.

(And I'd like to know where you got that quote from.)

Gaffer, the argument right now does have some bearing on the matter because Brygun wants to maintain it as the core of his argument (see message #18).

(And, yes, you're partly right: although jase has indicated a willingness to change things, it's doubtful that it'll get done any time soon.)

Well if you can find a list of RP/game genres written by said academics, then I'd love to see it.


Wikipedia, for better or worse, has a list of RP genres.  They could be used as a starting point, though I don't think what they've got would be very suitable for here, the genres are far too broad.  Their steampunk article does, however, define steampunk as a sub-genre of science fiction.  Elsewhere I've seen it listed as a sub-genre of speculative fiction (which, in turn, is a type of fantastical fiction).  Indecision aside about which brand of fiction it's a sub-genre of, I personally think it is a sub-genre.  Interestingly a quick 'net search seems to confirm as much (searching for "steampunk" comes up with Wikipedia, Urbandictionary and Steampunk.com as the top results returning definitions in the search summary -- all say "sub-genre").

But this arguing semantics and rattling the steampunk sabre rather furiously.  As I said before, I'm not going to just add a genre.. which in this case means I'm not going to steampunk.  It doesn't matter how many academics you throw at me.  I'm more than happy to revise the genre list and add/subtract/rename what's there.  If what we come up with includes steampunk then that's great news for the steampunk fans, but I'm not going to add a genre (or sub-genre) without considering the genre list in its entirety.

I see there's no new thread about genres in the RPoL Development forum, which I take as a sign that people aren't interested in improving the genre list, rather merely getting their favourite genre added.  Apologies if my jaded point of view offends.

I've posted up a topic in RPoL Development.

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It seems like something that could use some work. I'm, personally, not really in favor of or against adding any specific thing, but it does seem like it could have some organization changes, and maybe tightening up some things. A place to discuss it, anyway.

I doubt there are any; since RPG genres seem to have taken their cues from literature genres, I would go to the academic lit on literature and genre to see what they say.

Which was quoted in earlier posts from the academics of Oxford as Steampunk being a genre. Apparently you don't like Oxford.

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jase,

I've presented the evidence of Steampunk having grown into a broad sweeping genre of many intellectual properties. Although I wish your decision was otherwise it is your decision to make.

Actually we have discussed how a genre list could be fully re-structured before. I remember, but it was a while back and I'm not sure which thread it was in. It was a thread that went a bit wayward and it was decided to revisit the topic later.

I remember that thread...or, at least, a thread on that topic.  I have a vague recollection of a few others that started off along those lines, but never really got anywhere productive.

That one got derailed because everyone kept arguing for their favorite 'pet' genre and things started drifting towards the 'my point of view is painfully obvious and if you can't see it you must be an idiot' end of the pool, if I recall correctly.  Everyone was still being very civil about it, but the undertone was pretty hard to mistake.